The AfD looks set to take power in a German state for the first time. In a DW exclusive, the front-runner in Saxony-Anhalt discusses plans to detain immigrants and revamp the school system, and relations with Russia.
We have a party much like them here in Denmark, and they too reached a maximum popularity with around 25% of votes at one election.
But these idiots typically can’t even walk straight, and soon there were so many scandals that their popularity fell through the floor.
But even with 25% of the vote, AfD can never take control of the country, because Germany is a democracy, so 25% of votes means 25% of the seats.
So to form a government they need support from other parties, and if they ever manage that, I bet when their policies become clear, and voting for them is no longer a protest vote, that they will decline to not be able to make government again. That’s generally how it is with protest parties.
I mean, Hitler never got a majority with the NSDAP. I think he actually got like 30% of the vote or something, and became the biggest party, but far away from a majority.
The issue was that the centre-right parties were scared of the left-winged / communist parties, so they decided to cooperate with Hitler.
Basically, it’s usually centre-right politicians that give rise to radical right politicians, and the radical right politicians don’t need a majority, to get into power.
When a “centre-right” party chooses cooperation with totalitarianists, they are not centre-right, but enablers of the far-right. Keep in mind that the CDU/CSU is opportunistic: it has cooperated with AfD in at least one province. To me, that’s evidence of some of their party members being empty shells, devoid of humanity.
Those who reject that path should reform CDU/CSU from inside to support busting large cooperations and giving back the narrative to the people, rather than to fragile authoritarianists. The true Christian democrats, will master that path, and if they are kicked out, well, then they must create a new CDU/CSU of their own!
All who choose fascism over communism, choose hatred and repression over liberation.
Hitler had 33% of the vote in the last free and fair election, before he seized the country. And yet he managed to seize the country. Never be naive!
It was thanks to the corrupt and senile Hindenburg who was in the pockets of the military, thanks to the irresponsible racist Papen who put capital before people, and thanks to collaboration from ““national”” ““conservatives””.
The KPD refused to cooperate with the SPD, because they viewed the SPD negatively due to the SPD’s leaders having crushed a communist liberation movement in the aftermath of WWI. Personally, I generally support both the SPD and 1919-1928 KPD, but that is the one big criticism I have of the SPD; a council democracy would have been better, than the path the Weimar Republic walked.
In the face of fascism, all must cooperate against it. Class consciousness must be maximised, and that is reached by talking with those farmers, with those with less education, by making them feel like they’re heard; we should not blame them, but rather focus our solidarity upon breaking the neoliberal and neofascist movement.
That was completely different, German democracy was in complete shambles and the country disillusioned.
Comparing this situation to what happened back then is like comparing apples to oranges.
If it is, then how is AfD, an explicitly fascist and anti-democratic party, so big?
In the face of fascism, the answer to tackling it, isn’t “It’s totally different”, but “Let’s get people to regain trust in democracy”. And that starts by tackling homelessness, housing costs, wage theft, corporatocracy, deplatforming all antidemocratic groups, and so on.
Biden took a lot of measures that helped the American public, but the narrative was skewed against him due to large corporations and reactionaries opposing his policies.
Because of immigrants. People believe immigrants are bad for their country, and they feel they get benefits at the cost of native Germans.
It’s all about Xenophobia, just like Brexit.
Absolutely not, Nazism was seen as protection against communism, there is no such need today.
Also today AfD is extremely disliked by the rest of the population.
Nazism won before WW2 because Germany was disillusioned, they felt unfairly treated by the world, and their democracy was failing.
You can’t point to any of those mechanisms today. Today it’s almost 100% xenophobia, and for some east Germans, they feel unfairly treated by west Germany, despite it was West Germany that footed the bill, and West Germany and EU have invested billions in east Germany.
The East Germans were just not aware how far behind they were.
Tell that to those fascists that somehow still think they’re in the Cold War, like in the US, where socialists and communists are routinely despised and opposed, be it through union-busting, arrests of protesters, firebombing Black Panthers, et cetera. Nowadays you still see it but it’s less overt.
It’s not just xenophobia - otherwise, a lot of leftists would’ve voted for left-wing parties that opposed immigration. And those do exist.
Fascism rarely becomes more popular than that before the violence starts… after it does if it looks any more popular than that it is because centrists tend to be cowards.
Please note that the attitude towards AfD among the population in general is VERY negative.
With the Nazi’s some supported them because they were anti communism. That is not the case today.
It’s sad that AfD has gained as much as they have, maybe Germany shouldn’t have been united after all. It seems the former East Germans are extremely unhappy about it!?
A minority can take over if the majority does nothing to prevent it.
That’s way more how it looks in USA than in Germany IMO.
Still I hope USA has a tipping point, where normal people has had enough.
And I wouldn’t bet 100% on the mid terms fixing the problem. USA is in a much worse position, because it’s a flawed democracy, with only 2 parties that realistically can have the power of governing. That makes people much less likely to see an alternative they like better than the sociopathy and destruction of society that has become the brand of Republicans. It’s a mindset of “If I have to suffer, you have to fucking suffer too.”
In Germany there has actually been convictions against AfD people, so there are already limits to what they are allowed to do without going to prison. Contrary to Trump who is allowed to make crime after crime without consequences.
For instance AfD party members have been sentenced jail time for being Russian agents, and for a period of time, AfD members of the Bundestag were not allowed to see confidential papers, because their integrity was questioned.
With the Russian federation seemingly collapsing, a lot of outside influence will probably disappear, and Trump/Musk are no longer popular even among AfD members.
Yes I understand it’s a problem that AfD is as big as it is, and it can cause problems governing Germany that so many support AfD, but I don’t see Nazism taking control of Germany, by taking control of a German government.
The opposition to them is too strong for that.
I think you are forgetting that Germany actually has committed a Holocaust against Jews and that this Holocaust began as a politically fringe movement.
One of the leading parties of in Germany literally has Theology in the name, you have to be kidding me if you don’t think Germany is right on the edge of succombing to fascism.
but I don’t see Nazism taking control of Germany, by taking control of a German government.
The opposition to them is too strong for that.
Why? Were there not many who were at first opposed the first time the Nazis did it in Germany? Fascism takes over by taking the reigns of government and convincing empty centrists to stick to their obsession with decorum instead of sounding the fire alarm like they need to, it does not require a broad endorsement of it by a majority of the population. To believe it does is very very dangerous.
But do you also have another ~25% party that pretends to be center conservative yet is already happily copying every far-right propaganda and culture war narrative and exactly a handful of changes in leading positions away from ruling side-by-side with the them? One with a voter base so brain-dead that they will always vote for them anyway…
No, it’s very unlikely that the right would get a complete majority, it’s almost always split between left and right, with a few center parties, that prevent either side from getting a one sided majority.
See, and that’s the fundamental problem. The AfD will never get an majority. But the allegedly center conservatives are parroting every AfD line, all while at the same time having leaders very vocal about no cooperation with the far-right yet constantly normalising the idea of said cooperation via backbenchers suggesting it without any backlash.
Guess what… the nazis also never got a majority but came to power via delusional conservative that seriously thought governing with fascists would reign them in.
Our problem is not primarily a far-right too stupid to actually govern or a minority that is too stupid to not vote for them anyway. It’s the run-of-the-mill conservative that has no ideas, no solutions to any modern problem and is happily jumping onto the populism bullshit train to get to power anyway.
But the allegedly center conservatives are parroting every AfD line
That’s exactly what happened here, many parties took the Xenophobe line from our most extreme party.
The Social Democrats even took a lead on that. Since that The Danish Peoples party has never come near their prior strength, and they almost didn’t get a single candidate elected a few years back.
The result is that our immigration politics are extremely harsh, bordering on what’s legal according to treaties we are part of.
But at least we did it without getting a “Geert Wilders” in government, like they did in the Netherlands.
I don’t personally like that our immigration policies are probably the harshest in EU. But unfortunately it seems to be politically necessary ATM. Problems with immigration are so blown up in the media, that the population demands it.
Not fascism, but that we protect our society against influx that some people seem to think is damaging to our society. And in a sense that should be the right of any sovereign nation.
But it certainly doesn’t help the situation, that we now have a retirement age of 71. Which might have been avoided if we had more immigrants. But people see it as our wellfare is threatened, and they see immigration as part of that threat.
We have a party much like them here in Denmark, and they too reached a maximum popularity with around 25% of votes at one election.
But these idiots typically can’t even walk straight, and soon there were so many scandals that their popularity fell through the floor.
But even with 25% of the vote, AfD can never take control of the country, because Germany is a democracy, so 25% of votes means 25% of the seats.
So to form a government they need support from other parties, and if they ever manage that, I bet when their policies become clear, and voting for them is no longer a protest vote, that they will decline to not be able to make government again. That’s generally how it is with protest parties.
I mean, Hitler never got a majority with the NSDAP. I think he actually got like 30% of the vote or something, and became the biggest party, but far away from a majority.
The issue was that the centre-right parties were scared of the left-winged / communist parties, so they decided to cooperate with Hitler.
Basically, it’s usually centre-right politicians that give rise to radical right politicians, and the radical right politicians don’t need a majority, to get into power.
When a “centre-right” party chooses cooperation with totalitarianists, they are not centre-right, but enablers of the far-right. Keep in mind that the CDU/CSU is opportunistic: it has cooperated with AfD in at least one province. To me, that’s evidence of some of their party members being empty shells, devoid of humanity.
Those who reject that path should reform CDU/CSU from inside to support busting large cooperations and giving back the narrative to the people, rather than to fragile authoritarianists. The true Christian democrats, will master that path, and if they are kicked out, well, then they must create a new CDU/CSU of their own!
All who choose fascism over communism, choose hatred and repression over liberation.
Hitler was very different circumstances, that are not comparable.
Hitler had 33% of the vote in the last free and fair election, before he seized the country. And yet he managed to seize the country. Never be naive!
It was thanks to the corrupt and senile Hindenburg who was in the pockets of the military, thanks to the irresponsible racist Papen who put capital before people, and thanks to collaboration from ““national”” ““conservatives””.
The KPD refused to cooperate with the SPD, because they viewed the SPD negatively due to the SPD’s leaders having crushed a communist liberation movement in the aftermath of WWI. Personally, I generally support both the SPD and 1919-1928 KPD, but that is the one big criticism I have of the SPD; a council democracy would have been better, than the path the Weimar Republic walked.
In the face of fascism, all must cooperate against it. Class consciousness must be maximised, and that is reached by talking with those farmers, with those with less education, by making them feel like they’re heard; we should not blame them, but rather focus our solidarity upon breaking the neoliberal and neofascist movement.
That was completely different, German democracy was in complete shambles and the country disillusioned.
Comparing this situation to what happened back then is like comparing apples to oranges.
If it is, then how is AfD, an explicitly fascist and anti-democratic party, so big?
In the face of fascism, the answer to tackling it, isn’t “It’s totally different”, but “Let’s get people to regain trust in democracy”. And that starts by tackling homelessness, housing costs, wage theft, corporatocracy, deplatforming all antidemocratic groups, and so on.
Biden took a lot of measures that helped the American public, but the narrative was skewed against him due to large corporations and reactionaries opposing his policies.
Not to handwave away.
Because of immigrants. People believe immigrants are bad for their country, and they feel they get benefits at the cost of native Germans.
It’s all about Xenophobia, just like Brexit.
So how is it different?
Then: Large socioeconomic inequity, institutional distrust, anti-intellectualism, Jews as scapegoat
Now: Large socioeconomic inequity, institutional distrust, anti-intellectualism, immigrants and queers as scapegoat
Same shit, different century.
Absolutely not, Nazism was seen as protection against communism, there is no such need today.
Also today AfD is extremely disliked by the rest of the population.
Nazism won before WW2 because Germany was disillusioned, they felt unfairly treated by the world, and their democracy was failing.
You can’t point to any of those mechanisms today. Today it’s almost 100% xenophobia, and for some east Germans, they feel unfairly treated by west Germany, despite it was West Germany that footed the bill, and West Germany and EU have invested billions in east Germany.
The East Germans were just not aware how far behind they were.
Tell that to those fascists that somehow still think they’re in the Cold War, like in the US, where socialists and communists are routinely despised and opposed, be it through union-busting, arrests of protesters, firebombing Black Panthers, et cetera. Nowadays you still see it but it’s less overt.
It’s not just xenophobia - otherwise, a lot of leftists would’ve voted for left-wing parties that opposed immigration. And those do exist.
No, there is much more.
Fascism rarely becomes more popular than that before the violence starts… after it does if it looks any more popular than that it is because centrists tend to be cowards.
Please note that the attitude towards AfD among the population in general is VERY negative.
With the Nazi’s some supported them because they were anti communism. That is not the case today.
It’s sad that AfD has gained as much as they have, maybe Germany shouldn’t have been united after all. It seems the former East Germans are extremely unhappy about it!?
It is no different in the US with our violent rightwing extremists and it makes no difference, fascism never truly wins through majority popularity.
A minority can take over if the majority does nothing to prevent it.
That’s way more how it looks in USA than in Germany IMO.
Still I hope USA has a tipping point, where normal people has had enough.
And I wouldn’t bet 100% on the mid terms fixing the problem. USA is in a much worse position, because it’s a flawed democracy, with only 2 parties that realistically can have the power of governing. That makes people much less likely to see an alternative they like better than the sociopathy and destruction of society that has become the brand of Republicans. It’s a mindset of “If I have to suffer, you have to fucking suffer too.”
In Germany there has actually been convictions against AfD people, so there are already limits to what they are allowed to do without going to prison. Contrary to Trump who is allowed to make crime after crime without consequences.
For instance AfD party members have been sentenced jail time for being Russian agents, and for a period of time, AfD members of the Bundestag were not allowed to see confidential papers, because their integrity was questioned.
With the Russian federation seemingly collapsing, a lot of outside influence will probably disappear, and Trump/Musk are no longer popular even among AfD members.
Yes I understand it’s a problem that AfD is as big as it is, and it can cause problems governing Germany that so many support AfD, but I don’t see Nazism taking control of Germany, by taking control of a German government.
The opposition to them is too strong for that.
It looks pretty meager to me.
I think you are forgetting that Germany actually has committed a Holocaust against Jews and that this Holocaust began as a politically fringe movement.
One of the leading parties of in Germany literally has Theology in the name, you have to be kidding me if you don’t think Germany is right on the edge of succombing to fascism.
Why? Were there not many who were at first opposed the first time the Nazis did it in Germany? Fascism takes over by taking the reigns of government and convincing empty centrists to stick to their obsession with decorum instead of sounding the fire alarm like they need to, it does not require a broad endorsement of it by a majority of the population. To believe it does is very very dangerous.
But do you also have another ~25% party that pretends to be center conservative yet is already happily copying every far-right propaganda and culture war narrative and exactly a handful of changes in leading positions away from ruling side-by-side with the them? One with a voter base so brain-dead that they will always vote for them anyway…
No, it’s very unlikely that the right would get a complete majority, it’s almost always split between left and right, with a few center parties, that prevent either side from getting a one sided majority.
See, and that’s the fundamental problem. The AfD will never get an majority. But the allegedly center conservatives are parroting every AfD line, all while at the same time having leaders very vocal about no cooperation with the far-right yet constantly normalising the idea of said cooperation via backbenchers suggesting it without any backlash.
Guess what… the nazis also never got a majority but came to power via delusional conservative that seriously thought governing with fascists would reign them in.
Our problem is not primarily a far-right too stupid to actually govern or a minority that is too stupid to not vote for them anyway. It’s the run-of-the-mill conservative that has no ideas, no solutions to any modern problem and is happily jumping onto the populism bullshit train to get to power anyway.
That’s exactly what happened here, many parties took the Xenophobe line from our most extreme party.
The Social Democrats even took a lead on that. Since that The Danish Peoples party has never come near their prior strength, and they almost didn’t get a single candidate elected a few years back.
The result is that our immigration politics are extremely harsh, bordering on what’s legal according to treaties we are part of.
But at least we did it without getting a “Geert Wilders” in government, like they did in the Netherlands.
I don’t personally like that our immigration policies are probably the harshest in EU. But unfortunately it seems to be politically necessary ATM. Problems with immigration are so blown up in the media, that the population demands it.
Not fascism, but that we protect our society against influx that some people seem to think is damaging to our society. And in a sense that should be the right of any sovereign nation.
But it certainly doesn’t help the situation, that we now have a retirement age of 71. Which might have been avoided if we had more immigrants. But people see it as our wellfare is threatened, and they see immigration as part of that threat.