power outages at these facilities already happened, but it’s a smaller problem in grand scheme of things. facility of this type promises to keep human meatsicle at 77K effectively forever (because magic tech to revive dead is not coming), for a single payment. this means they’ll simply run out of power/liquid nitrogen money at some point and will have to shut down, and allow everything to thaw
Liquid nitrogen is cheap to produce at scale and LN2 loss decreases per unit of internal volume as the volume increases.
As for the revival tech, of course the meat is never coming back, but once we have the technology to scan the remains with 1 nanometer cubic accuracy then we’ll just run simulated copies of them, the biggest question is how much of “them” was destroyed by the freeze/thaw/scan process
But we can probably patch the large bulk of the damage with copies from other people that have undamaged structures,
It will be a little chimeric, you’ll have your damage replaced with someone else’s or the average of many other people’s intact structures.
And then the last thing to answer is the Ship Of Theseus problem, is a near perfect copy of you running in a simulated mathematical space still “you” or is there no “you” left ? That’s something only “you” can answer because to the people outside the simulation, the “you” will behave exactly the same as the meat “you”… That’s assuming the simulation technology of say, 500 years in the future, actually is that good.
All of it. Like there might be some very basic kinda-human structure, but all the bits are soup, tge information is gone. Short of doing full on cosmism; you can’t get that back.
simulation
Nobody understands what a ‘simulation’ actually is, or how it relates to ‘reality’
yes LN2 is cheap-ish (about price of milk) but it’s not free. gains you’re talking about only happen when comically large dewars are used, these would have to be custom made for them - meaning nonstandard and not cheap
ah yes “just” 1nm precision scanning. even scanning at resolution of six single carbon-carbon bonds won’t help you after cell walls and everything that was inside were shredded by ice crystals formed, as i think there’s not really suitable cryoprotectant involved, if it’s even developed for human-size tissues. i don’t think it’s a thing, and also freezing rate required would be likely impossible just because of typical human size
as it stands today, moore’s law hit a wall, brain simulation is fantasy tech, and it’ll remain so for considerable time, i’d even say probably forever (humans will have more pressing issues to deal with). copy is not original and maybe it’ll be reassuring to other people, but these other people also are dead by that point so it’s useless. the rest are futurologist noises coming from people who don’t want to admit that they made a religion out of misinterpreted scifi
500 years in the future? mate, would you consider
Early attempts at cryonic preservation were made in the 1960s and early 1970s; most relied on family members to pay for the preservation and ended in failure, with all but one of the corpses cryopreserved before 1973 being thawed and disposed of.[14]
not even single one frozen today will remain so within 70, 100 years, nevermind 500
LN2 is about 500kJ per kg to liquefy, that’s less than 0.01$ per kg, I don’t know where you get your milk but I want some I that price. You do know that our atmostphere is 80% nitrogen ?
The size of the dewars isn’t the relevant factor, what good is a dewar of LN2 when it’s the cryocaskets that need to be cooled, not dewars, you only need dewars to store LN2, but why would you store it in gigantic reservoirs when it can easy be produced on demand and on site ?
1nm scanning volumetric precision isn’t really far fetch at the current rate of progress, like I said, cell wall damage isn’t going to be a problem, first there’s supposed to be very little of it because, you haven’t mentioned it but, of course they’ve been using cryoprotectants from a long time now but even if they weren’t, those scanned cells aren’t going to need to work, they’re just the machinery that produces the structure, before the first person is scanned they will have algorithm to repair any damage to any cell.
What actually matter is the connections between cells, the person itself lives in the network of neurons of the nervous system and the most critical thing that actually needs scanning is the structure inside synapses, everything else is much bigger.
“moore’s law hit a wall”, doesn’t matter, easilly parrallelizable as a simulation, the hard part was scanning
“it’ll remain so for considerable time” pure speculation, but it does touch on the most probable downfall of this project and that is the very likely planetary scale collapse of human civilization from economic failure cascade.
(humans will have more pressing issues to deal with) I assure you, humans dying today do not have more pressing issues than their own death
“copy is not original” that’s a “you” problem, as I mention in my text regarding the Ship of Theseus problem
“don’t want to admit that they made a religion out of misinterpreted scifi” you could paint whole building in one swipe with a brush that wide
“not even single one frozen today will remain so” based on 1960 to 1973 ? How old are you again ?
power outages at these facilities already happened, but it’s a smaller problem in grand scheme of things. facility of this type promises to keep human meatsicle at 77K effectively forever (because magic tech to revive dead is not coming), for a single payment. this means they’ll simply run out of power/liquid nitrogen money at some point and will have to shut down, and allow everything to thaw
At the very least the customers won’t notice. 😅
So the gamble is that tech is invented before money runs out?
But also didn’t one routine inspection discover liquefied human remains?
Why? We have enough humans. Why would we thaw out more at huge cost?
Thawing out scientists whose research is stalled because aliens have blocked sub atomic particle research.
Ayy fellow Trisolaris enjoyer
Because of the huge cost.
You already have their money.
it’s not a gamble, it’s more of a shared belief propagated by people who took scifi way too seriously
Not even. By people who took it literally and completely missed the point.
The idea is you have investments running that return enough to keep the place running indefinitely.
This sounds like Blackrock but with dead investors in the meat freezer.
But the point is that people will continue to die and believe in that kind of thing. A bit like religion…
Obviously space could become an issue especially if some kind of revival never happens… But at the price they set I think it’s prohibitive enough.
There will never be a shortage of fools for this kind of services.
I would imagine they use the same financial methods as funeral homes taking payment decades before you die.
Money goes into an investment fund that keeps growing.
funeral home doesn’t have recurring expenses per corpse for infinite time
Liquid nitrogen is cheap to produce at scale and LN2 loss decreases per unit of internal volume as the volume increases.
As for the revival tech, of course the meat is never coming back, but once we have the technology to scan the remains with 1 nanometer cubic accuracy then we’ll just run simulated copies of them, the biggest question is how much of “them” was destroyed by the freeze/thaw/scan process
But we can probably patch the large bulk of the damage with copies from other people that have undamaged structures,
It will be a little chimeric, you’ll have your damage replaced with someone else’s or the average of many other people’s intact structures.
And then the last thing to answer is the Ship Of Theseus problem, is a near perfect copy of you running in a simulated mathematical space still “you” or is there no “you” left ? That’s something only “you” can answer because to the people outside the simulation, the “you” will behave exactly the same as the meat “you”… That’s assuming the simulation technology of say, 500 years in the future, actually is that good.
This is so much harder than you think it is
All of it. Like there might be some very basic kinda-human structure, but all the bits are soup, tge information is gone. Short of doing full on cosmism; you can’t get that back.
Nobody understands what a ‘simulation’ actually is, or how it relates to ‘reality’
yes LN2 is cheap-ish (about price of milk) but it’s not free. gains you’re talking about only happen when comically large dewars are used, these would have to be custom made for them - meaning nonstandard and not cheap
ah yes “just” 1nm precision scanning. even scanning at resolution of six single carbon-carbon bonds won’t help you after cell walls and everything that was inside were shredded by ice crystals formed, as i think there’s not really suitable cryoprotectant involved, if it’s even developed for human-size tissues. i don’t think it’s a thing, and also freezing rate required would be likely impossible just because of typical human size
as it stands today, moore’s law hit a wall, brain simulation is fantasy tech, and it’ll remain so for considerable time, i’d even say probably forever (humans will have more pressing issues to deal with). copy is not original and maybe it’ll be reassuring to other people, but these other people also are dead by that point so it’s useless. the rest are futurologist noises coming from people who don’t want to admit that they made a religion out of misinterpreted scifi
500 years in the future? mate, would you consider
not even single one frozen today will remain so within 70, 100 years, nevermind 500
LN2 is about 500kJ per kg to liquefy, that’s less than 0.01$ per kg, I don’t know where you get your milk but I want some I that price. You do know that our atmostphere is 80% nitrogen ?
The size of the dewars isn’t the relevant factor, what good is a dewar of LN2 when it’s the cryocaskets that need to be cooled, not dewars, you only need dewars to store LN2, but why would you store it in gigantic reservoirs when it can easy be produced on demand and on site ?
1nm scanning volumetric precision isn’t really far fetch at the current rate of progress, like I said, cell wall damage isn’t going to be a problem, first there’s supposed to be very little of it because, you haven’t mentioned it but, of course they’ve been using cryoprotectants from a long time now but even if they weren’t, those scanned cells aren’t going to need to work, they’re just the machinery that produces the structure, before the first person is scanned they will have algorithm to repair any damage to any cell.
What actually matter is the connections between cells, the person itself lives in the network of neurons of the nervous system and the most critical thing that actually needs scanning is the structure inside synapses, everything else is much bigger.
“moore’s law hit a wall”, doesn’t matter, easilly parrallelizable as a simulation, the hard part was scanning
“it’ll remain so for considerable time” pure speculation, but it does touch on the most probable downfall of this project and that is the very likely planetary scale collapse of human civilization from economic failure cascade.
(humans will have more pressing issues to deal with) I assure you, humans dying today do not have more pressing issues than their own death
“copy is not original” that’s a “you” problem, as I mention in my text regarding the Ship of Theseus problem
“don’t want to admit that they made a religion out of misinterpreted scifi” you could paint whole building in one swipe with a brush that wide
“not even single one frozen today will remain so” based on 1960 to 1973 ? How old are you again ?
Compound interest.