long post
I’m reading “A Field Guide to Earthlings, An autistic Asperger view of neurotypical behavior” by Ian Ford, one of the final patterns: Why you will generally lose.
If you scroll back my history you’ll find some posts where most of you believe I am on the spectrum.
I haven’t been diagnosed: Where I am it is extremely difficult to find a decent psychiatrist to do a test that would be several days long, are several miles away and have long waiting lists, but I do believe am on the spectrum. It’s like the book I’m reading describes me. I really don’t get neurotypicals and why won’t they leave me alone, specially when I do leave them alone.
Back to the book: “Even if we could give up our strengths and go to the basest level of NTs in some areas (for example, abandoning our love of accuracy), that would still not enable us to adopt their strengths, such as sensory integration, and we probably would not be able to memorize their constantly-changing culture. So in that sense it is hopeless.”
This is me. I love accuracy and I find NTs illogical, emotional and sometimes backstabbing, lacking authenticity. I like authenticity. It’s also very tiring having to constantly guess what the person I talk to is going to understand of my message: the message itself or some odd interpretation of it that somehow attacks his self esteem. So tiring.
I’ve been accused behind my back of being manipulative, uncaring, rude, and also a sociopath. Once this impression is given, it is impossible to make people change their minds, including management. I usually don’t fight it because, really, fighting gossip? that’s sticking to 5 year old level politics and what’s the point? The book I mentioned says enemies who don’t fight will lose, but it’s so tiring fighting every stupid thing (most of?) my coworkers think I am.
I don’t know.
Then there is how most society constructs us: as people who WILLINGLY decide to want to be left alone and act antisocial, who feel above everyone else who NEED to be either ignored or must be molded to fit in, even if that’s something they don’t want, because that’s what’s good for them, just because that’s the extroverted neurotypical norm. They don’t see introversion and solitude as self caring, but as depression, being an ass and being antisocial.
I’m living exactly this at the workplace and I hate it: I’m seen as robotic for doing exactly the same thing others do, but because they talk about inane stuff with management, they are automatically better than me. They never see me as solution oriented, eager to learn or concentrated on doing the task at hand. I’m always the odd one that lacks potential.
“If it is a setting where people are trying to be live up to high moral standards, you might just be the target of rumors; in groups with lower standards, the eviction or shunning could be more open and forceful. In either case, you lose.”
yup. I always lose.
If you’re a neurotypical and now you suggest this is my fault, I’m overreacting, it’s not so difficult to do small talk, if I can YOU must can, and I have to fake being an extroverted ass, get bent. Would you change your whole personality just because society dictates you must? Could you live with yourself?
But, if conforming to a neurotypical extroverted model is out of the question, how do I live the rest of my life?
I don’t mean the question as a financial one: I’m a RN quitting bedside who applied and got a job moving oxygen dependent patients that require monitoring between wards, so at least I’m not unemployed, don’t have to deal with entitled patients complaining about cold coffee, not good looking cushions, lack of tv, what’s good to have sex with women… I’ve been promised uninterrupted 30 minute pauses and no night shifts. Hope it’s not a case of the grass is greener…
It’s about what to think about society, because I always expected people to mind their business and leave me alone (because I leave them alone, I don’t bother them), I never expected them to be this hostile.
My logical step now would be to become a misanthrope, but I don’t know if that would be good or bad. It’s not like I have a high opinion of mankind anyways.
I’ve been accused behind my back of being manipulative, uncaring, rude, and also a sociopath. Once this impression is given, it is impossible to make people change their minds, including management. I usually don’t fight it because, really, fighting gossip? that’s sticking to 5 year old level politics and what’s the point?
Welcome to being an adult. We all think it’s asinine. Some people get wrapped up and completely engrossed in it. They make petty office politics their entire existence. Some people play the game but only to rise through the ranks. Some people stay out of it. You don’t really fit into any of these categories, it seems. It kinda just sounds like you’re a bit of a dick. That doesn’t make you ND, some people are just kinda dicks.
And I don’t mean that as a slight. Some of my best friends I would classify as being dicks. But it’s everything else you bring to the table that matters. Are you so good at what you do that people put up with it? Or are you just kind of a dick with no redeeming qualities?
Finding reasons for being unlikeable or off-putting doesn’t change the fact that that’s how people see you. You don’t sound ND, you just sound like you don’t care to change. That’s different.
It’s not impossible to make people change their minds. Just be nice. That’s all it takes. The qualities of a nice person aren’t constantly changing and impossible to follow for ND people. You’re just making excuses.
You don’t sound ND, you just sound like you don’t care to change. That’s different.
the people who criticize me are not that important to me that warrant I change to some version of what they consider better. I’ve reached a point where it doesn’t make sense anymore to try to be a better, more knowledgeable professional but simply finding a job where people leave me alone. At least I’d be happier.
I guess I’m full misanthrope now
I guess it’s ‘good’ I can ‘change’ if I so decide? but really, change, for what?
I guess it’s ‘good’ I can ‘change’ if I so decide? but really, change, for what?
Read Books on ethics, not a book about whether you being rude and off putting means you’re neurodivergent.
You don’t have to socialize. But being a decent person means sacrificing your comfort for others’ sometimes. I’m definitely a huge introvert. But just because I’d rather be alone doesn’t mean I’m an asshole to others. Some people don’t get introverts, it just doesn’t compute for them. You can choose to be an asshole to those people—they’re not doing anything to try to hurt you—or you can choose to be decent. You’re just choosing the former.
You don’t have to socialize. But being a decent person means sacrificing your comfort for others’ sometimes.
you seem to imply there’s something like a middle point between fully socializing and being decent, which I guess means talking but less? Is this so?
We all have to interact with people. That’s living in a community. But when you do, being nice is all it takes. “He’s a really nice guy, he’s just kinda quiet.” This isn’t an uncommon thing to hear about others. It’s literally a common type of person. But then there are assholes. The way you’re describing it you just don’t care to be nice and you’ve found an excuse in neurodivergence that you’re latching onto.
being nice is all it takes.
if you mean I have to do this I shouldn’t even waste my time and look for jobs where I work alone. Step 2 is already Get to know your coworkers which for the most part, are irrelevant to me. And I can’t fake that.
Saying hi is not enough?
I have no problem with those who have something interesting to say but most of them for the most part care about stuff so asinine it makes me want to kill them and then myself.
Either I learn really fast to deflect very successfully or I start working alone. To keep my sanity.
Spoiler alert: none of us actually care about how anyone else’s weekends were or how the other person’s kids are doing. You’re just being intentionally obtuse and tedious
none of us actually care about how anyone else’s weekends were or how the other person’s kids are doing.
got it, you ask to fake interest in the other person so he feels valued. Seems ridiculous and a waste of intellect.
It seems the best I can do is working alone. These rituals are way too complicated for me.
Being on the spectrum is not the problem.
You might have other mental issues as well. Since i am not a licensed psychiatrist or therapist I won’t tell my assumptions. Please seek for professional help.
Is this you? https://lemmy.world/post/33996581
You seem to share a way of typing and it is clear in both cases that being on the spectrum is not the issue here. There is an insane level of self importance and zero consideration of anyone else
Thank you, I thought I was going crazy. Reading through this post and comments had me convinced I’d read it all before: the OP, most of the comments, etc… to the point that I thought the whole thread was just bots reposting old data to each other.
This is the problem with self-diagnoses. There is a fine line between being uncaring and being unable to care. One is a bad person, the other person is possibly BPD.
OP, until you get diagnosed with something, leave your excuses for being a dick aside and work on bettering yourself. Even if you end up being unable, it still doesn’t mean you have Asperger’s. Because bad people still refuse to change sometimes.
They don’t see introversion and solitude as self caring, but as depression, being an ass and being antisocial.
As an introverted person who is also at least a bit on the spectrum, I really don’t think this is true. I’m very open about being introverted and needing to leave when my battery is depleted or turning things down when I need solo time, and I’m not sure I’ve ever experienced a negative or rude reaction from it. You already sound like you’re pretty misanthropic and tbh kind of a dick; I’d wager the people you’re having negative interactions with are picking up on that rather than your introversion.
I’d wager the people you’re having negative interactions with are picking up on that rather than your introversion.
I don’t know, my soon to be former workplace is like a primary school: established coworkers settle in, start yelling, are obnoxious, care about ludicrously stupid stuff I simply don’t care about. This goes on for 30 minutes. every day.
I’m trapped: if I leave for these 30 minutes they go find me to ask what am I doing, usually reading something interesting on my smartphone without them yapping.
Gossiping has already started at this point.
To avoid this I’ve settled for reading what interests me together with them which is not as good as it sounds but apparently placates them.
I still don’t understand how adults can behave so childish.
Would you change your whole personality just because society dictates you must?
Yes. We do what we must to survive. It’s masking. I am many people. I am one person at work, I play the game of being social. I am another at home with family, I play the game of house member. I am another person with friends, I play the game of a buddy.
You decide if you want to follow the rules and earn their prizes or find another system to exist in. It’s far easier said than done. I chose to follow the rules. You might not.
I am many people.
don’t you find it tiring? It’s extremely draining to me to fake being something I am not, specially if faking implies I have to act like an extroverted interested in a coworker’s life, including his sexual one.
One I had a coworker go on a full republican rant about how this country is going to sh%t, so… what do I do with people like this? I simply don’t care about their beliefs.
I like how you present this as a choice and not an imposition.
I like how you present this as a choice
And it’s true. Everything you do has been your choice to do.
what do I do with people like this? I simply don’t care about their beliefs
But don’t you see the possibilities there? Your choice!
Especially with the “ranting ones” it is so easy to give them peace (because they can hardly ever see through it): just fake a little understanding, listen just a little longer and then finish it by (for example) telling them that it was nice talking and now you are going to continue with your work.
Everything you do has been your choice to do.
I don’t know. To me this “choice” feels like a natural response, a default one, the easy answer. I’m not a patient person. “Choosing” to give another answer feels completely strange, foreign, not me, being fake and feels like a waste of time.
I’m not a patient person.
Even that is a choice.
the easy answer.
“Choosing” to give another answer feels completely strange, foreign, not me
Oh, come on. Life starts when you get your lazy ass up and try it ; -)
Why are other people and societal expectations so important to you?
I wouldn’t phrase it that way but if you must I’d concentrate on people. Societal expectations are not important to me, it’s not something I strive to follow. Where did you get that from? Societal expectations are a form of unconscious, self imposed control.
To you question,about people: what bothers and triggers me is people constantly asking why I don’t talk more, why they feel offended if I answer asking why they talk so much, also feeling offended if I prefer to do my pause alone instead of with them, the talking behind my back which to me equals being unauthentic, misidentifying lack of interest in their lives and wanting to simply do my job as hostility.
Other people are not important to me because I care about them (at least coworkers). They are “important” because I care how they can make my life difficult, the unnecessary drama they create, I don’t want a workplace where I have to fake interest in them so they don’t feel offended and start badmouthing you.
Your personality is the problem, not the fact that you’re on the spectrum. I know plenty of autistic people who are very pleasant to be around, even those who are heavily introverted. If you put negative energy out towards people, they’re going to give it back to you.
You’re assuming a lot from a few paragraphs, and in a way proving their point. The assumption that some autistic people are pleasant so it must be possible for many is just plain wrong. There are autistic people that can’t speak or that constantly scream and being around them is difficult with personality being meaningless in any interactions with them.
Other people are not important to me because I care about them (at least coworkers). They are “important” because I care how they can make my life difficult
It’s not really an assumption. They basically said as much themselves. Some autistic people can be dicks too.
Your coworkers do it to you and if frustrates you, but you’re doing it to them which frustrates them.
They openly admit to doing the bad behavior back to them.
why I don’t talk more, why they feel offended if I answer asking why they talk so much
There is no need to go for confrontation, asking why someone talks so little might just be a way of trying to include them in a group or getting to know them, and it sounds like OP just responds as hostile as possible. They could just say “I’m comfortable talking little” or whatever.
This is you making assumptions based on your perceptions. In fact it reads as a defense of their, the NTs, action’s through the lens of your experience meaning this is how you treat others and don’t assume any responsibility because you’re being “nice”. OPs response isn’t necessarily one they choose; it is likely a reaction, and while they do have responsibility in that type of response, it isn’t all on them. If someone comes up to you and slaps you across the face are you going to be like “oh thank you and nice to meet you”? It’s a bit of an extreme example, but the input onslaught that is social interactions to certain people may as well be a slap in the face. Again, you’re framing this whole issue from your own experience.
Two things.
For most people, asking “why do you talk so little?” is not a slap in the face, it is an attempt at inclusion. It gets interpreted as a slap in the face. As such, your example is not right.
Secondly, when we expect people to take our autistic sensibilities into account, I think it is entirely fair to take their sensibilities into account as well. Most people do not rub autistic people the wrong way on purpose. We do not rub them the wrong way on purpose. Yet it makes sense for both parties to take the other parties sensibilities into account. Since one can only control oneself, one should start this behavior with oneself.
There is no need to go for confrontation, asking why someone talks so little might just be a way of trying to include them in a group or getting to know them, and it sounds like OP just responds as hostile as possible.
why is answering a question with another question confrontational? this is a boundaries issue.
I can’t believe I have to explain this, but here it goes: if people talk much or less is purely subjective: what to introverted A is too much is for extroverted B too little.
extroverted B asked from his subjective point of view, introverted A simply answered from his also subjective point of view.
Why is this confrontational to you?
it sounds like OP just responds as hostile as possible.
wrong again, I calmly state that question. You seem to believe I start yelling at them or looking at them as if I wanted to hurt them.
my main question to you is this: why is answering a question with another question confrontational? this is about boundaries.
By getting “why do you talk so little?” and responding with “why do you talk so much?”, You’re doing what they do to you back to them. This is not hard to understand. You don’t like it, so they don’t like it. You’re essentially “proving your point” by taking revenge. The only thing they hear is that you’re taking revenge, your point is lost. It doesn’t matter how exactly you say it, you can say these words in the nicest way possible, and this exchange still sounds confrontational.
If it was about boundaries, you could say something along the lines “I don’t like these kind of questions, I am perfectly comfortable being quiet, with this question you make it sound like something is wrong about it. I get this question all the time and I don’t want to answer it anymore.”
Do you see the massive difference between yours and this response? This kind of response is directly stating exactly what you feel, explaining how their question is a problem for you. The other is hoping they will understand by you doing the same thing to them, which will obviously not work because like you say, they’re different from you, thus they won’t have the same reaction as you.
By getting “why do you talk so little?” and responding with “why do you talk so much?”, You’re doing what they do to you back to them.
absolutely. I answer a question with another question. Keep playing stupid games, you’ll keep getting stupid prizes.
you can say these words in the nicest way possible, and this exchange still sounds confrontational.
then why do they start it? I’m never the one pestering anyone about why they’re blond, tall, fat…
it’s not my job to entertain you. you speak like an extroverted neurotypical who thinks he knows better.
I already see extroverts upvoting you :D
do you have the ability to listen to boring stories with a smile on your face?
Why even ask if you’re just going to deflect opinions you don’t like?
Hope you get some help, dude.
because some people here offer good advice
I’m an autistic introvert and upvoted them. You really don’t see how you immediately go for personal attacks and derogatory behavior? You don’t need to tell people they’re being boring. You can just leave and not interact and thus not hurt their feelings, and thus not have conflict with people.
You don’t need to tell people they’re being boring.
where did you get that from? I don’t tell them directly they bore me, that’s what I think as I imagine leaving.
You can just leave and not interact and thus not hurt their feelings, and thus not have conflict with people.
actually that’s not true: if extrovert A says something I don’t care about, I wait patiently till he ends it and I leave, he will feel offended (an extrovert explained this to me). I don’t understand it but apparently it’s like this.
I’m not talking about in real life. I’m talking about your comments right here that are that way. You also edited your comment here, at first you were saying something about the person you’re replying to sounding boring.
You also edited your comment here, at first you were saying something about the person you’re replying to sounding boring.
please point where that happened as I have no clue what you’re talking about. Maybe quoting what I changed?
Your description of authenticity and its importance to you is a societal expectation. The request of talking more from others is a societal expectation. The fact that you’re struggling in a system where you’re viewed as outside the norm is societal expectation.
People in general expect the world and the people they interact with to be like them more or less. Your coworkers do it to you and if frustrates you, but you’re doing it to them which frustrates them. You expect authenticity because you’re attempting authenticity and they’re expecting societal norms and are presenting societal norms.
You aren’t required to participate in their system, but it won’t be easy on you.
I do want to touch on something you said about societal expectations. You say they’re a form of unconscious, self imposed control. How is your authenticity any different? Autism makes it hard to think outside a tried and true path. That rigidity is difficult to deal with, but may be worth looking into. Regardless, being authentic will be difficult in most social spaces, but that isn’t an absolute. The onus is on both you and the people around you.
wow, what a beautiful post.
Autism makes it hard to think outside a tried and true path. That rigidity is difficult to deal with, but may be worth looking into.
what do you mean ‘may be worth looking into.’?
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy can help with managing symptoms and helping you make changes to lessen the impact others have on you and vice versa. I know you mentioned that mental health isn’t really something you can easily get help with, but there are sites and books you can check out at libraries that can at least put you on the right path. I will warn you though that the exercises and methods CBT asks of you will straight up make you angry and feel stupid. You’ll reject them as silly or tell yourself that you’re experiences are different so it won’t work for you, but I promise as someone who also felt that way it isn’t true. That rigidity I mentioned before is what will be fueling those thoughts and feelings so keep that in mind if you choose to look into the CBT.
what bothers and triggers me is people constantly asking why I don’t […]
I have developed an answer to such questions:
I play chess. If you know that game: when it’s my turn, there are many possible moves. I can make only one. I can think about many of the other possibilities, but usually not all of them. So in the end, I decide my move, and then I am going to have one answer to the question “why did I…?” Only one is needed. And I am going to have only a few answers to all the possible questions “why didn’t I…?”. Maybe two or three, sometimes maybe even five of these possible moves that I decided against. But there will always be so many more possible moves (about 30 by average), where I don’t know the reason why I didn’t choose to make them. And in real life there are even more possibilities what I could do. Every second I do a thing, and I don’t do so many other things… And that’s why that question “why didn’t you?” is so boring, and so useless.
I’m sorry but I don’t quite understand your answer: are you telling me to start telling them about chess? because if you’re suggesting I think about several possible answers to prying questions well, I’m simply incapable of doing it fast enough. I’m glad you can, but I simply cannot.
are you telling me to start telling them
Not this time. It’s a theoretical answer to this kind of question. You decide if and when to use it.
Jobs are hard. Even if you find something that suits your skills, it may trigger sensory issues depending on what those are for you (I know some folks with issues with fluorescent lights, certain sounds, etc.)
Socially though? Find your local anarchists and get involved with whatever they’re up to. I mean, this involves getting into anarchism, which may not be your thing, but I bet your local fnb will do a lot to accommodate you and be very understanding of your social issues.
I am coming to grips with this myself. Not that I’m exactly in your shoes or anything, but I’ve kind of ignored ADD and realized that I’m probably on the spectrum as well.
…It’s already wrecked my life. Big time.
I don’t have great advice. But the two things I might suggest, that I’m trying to work on myself, are:
-
Be mindful. Be conscious of your own limitations and tendencies, and catch/steer yourself before they become a problem. Simply knowing you are on the neurodivergence spectrum is huge, as opposed to falling apart and not understanding why.
-
Be non combative. It’s easy to get frustrated with how shit and incompatible things are, and so on, but I’m finding a more ‘relaxed’ attitude is helping me. Don’t let people get under your skin: who cares what they think, beyond the bare minimum they require from you? Focus precious attention on people (and things) you like, instead.
-
