OH wow a city moves toward proportional representation. Wow Canada is saved municipal turn out is the worst or all the elections.
I just got back from my first (short) trip to Montréal in nearly 10 years. It’s the most human city in Canada, IMO. This would be a very human-empowering step, which is on brand, IMO. I hope it passes.
Montréal isn’t perfect, and neither is PR, but both are better than many alternatives, IMO.
Yup, no city or electoral system is perfect however there are definitely good ones out there.
Enough of this 2 race neoliberal vs fascist choices with first-past-the-post.
Yeah, just let the fascists win!
PR is a gift to the fascists, e.g., Italy, Austria and Poland come screaming to mind with Germany and France being dangerously close to having far Right parties take power.
On the contrary, FPTP is a gift to extremist minorities. That should be abundantly clear right now.
That is a bold take, what brings you to that conclusion?
Yet you ignore that fascists win with minority of the vote in countries with first-past-the-post. Donald Trump, Ron Desantis…
With proportional representation they have to win a majority. So it’s not meant to stop people for voting what they want but to more accurately represent the vote. Fascists love winning with just 30% instead of 51%.
Iceland, Norway and Spain are successful countries under pr.
Not mention countries with pr have the strongest unions.
???
Both of those examples won thr majority of votes. DeSantis won almost 60%, donald got over half…
Trump won with 32% of eligible voters.
Yes, but (admittedly, I was off by .3%) he still won more votes than his opponent.
In fact, a PR system may have enabled him further as presumably not all of RFK’s voters followed to trump BUT in a PR system that wouldn’t matter. As long as they voted for RFK and he teamed up with trump A) their wishes wouldn’t matter and B) he could hold trump hostage for even crazier anti vax stuff.
What does RFK have to do with anything.
Think through the logic of the 2024 election but under a PR system…
You’re engaging in bad faith, Trump couldn’t crack past 50% of the vote and turnout was low at 64% so that was inaccurate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election
Sure Ron Desantis won 59% of the vote in the last race but the voter turnout was embarrassingly low at 53.6%. Typical for first-past-the-post forcing down only 2 viable candidates instead of multiple.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Florida_gubernatorial_election
You’re opposing a fairer electoral system because you support the powerful few. You don’t want people to have more choices.
You can’t just decide that A) the folks who didn’t vote would actually vote for your side and B) that turnout would be significantly higher (Italy’s last election had about the same turnout, Austria had higher, both turned out governments of which you would not approve.)
I’m opposing this system because it has turned out really bad results in the last decade and I care about the people those governments would hurt here.
You might be okay regardless of government, I care about the people who wouldn’t be.
Italy’s last election had about the same turnout
Italy has a parallel system not a proportional one.
Austria had higher, both turned out governments of which you would not approve.
It’s a coalition, I don’t want one party to have all the power in government, there’s less accountability in that.
I’m opposing this system because it has turned out really bad results in the last decade and I care about the people those governments would hurt here.
The system that represents 95% of the vote, gives people better healthcare, climate action, accountability and more choice in parties/independents will hurt “Canadians more” you clearly have no clue what you’re talking about.
If people want to vote fascists, that’s a different problem from the electoral system ie propaganda.
Robert Mugabe would smile at your words.
To be clear, your 2 points are “Italy only aloocates two thirds of its seats via PR so it doesn’t count!” and “Austrian politicians have contorted themselves to keep out Kickl!” Neither of which is a ringing endorsement of PR.
Oh, and somewhat bizzarely deciding that Mugabe would be a fan even though he took power under a PR system! (80/20 split between PR and FPTP but he won a majority through PR anyway.)
If people want to vote fascists, that’s a different problem from the electoral system ie propaganda.
Or, the system you propose has generally not delivered satisfactory results which helps push people to extremes.
The system that represents 95% of the vote, gives people better healthcare, climate action, accountability
This isn’t a fact, it’s just some random nonsense you’ve declared. Hopefully you know there’s a difference.
Basically, of the two of us, I actually read about the world and then think about it. You’ve decided that PR is the best because you want people to have more choices at the ballot (which is good) without considering what happens to countries that have tried this.
If fascism is popular enough to win under PR, FPTP isn’t going to stop it
Yup, but I think PR fosters the emergence of Far Right/fascist parties.
I sort of explained the mechanisms to someone else in this thread here:
https://lemmy.ca/comment/18847795
tl;dr: FPTP discourages fringe parties, so they can’t snowball into something much more dangerous. And PR systems have, in the last couple of decades, had a much harder time passing significant legislation which has led to a general stagnation/dissatisfaction, whereas a system that produces strong majority governments for better or worse, gets a legit chance to pass comprehensive legislation to tackle issues. Carney has 4ish years to try his best to make serious change without having to beg the Conservatives for everything.
Jesus, finally.
