Executing the royal family that has oppressed your country for 3 centuries, so that the reactionary proto fascists (whites) don’t have another rallying point during the civil war is an understandable decision
This may be controversial, but executing children for the crime of existing is a bad thing.
The Tsar and Tsarina deserved the bullet. Their children did not.
Not controversial at all. I believe some folks call that the sins of the father. Very old. Very dumb. But then I know you know.
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The last Emperor of China was a child when his rule ended, and he ended up being a gardener and street cleaner in his later life.
That is a great example of rehabilitation, but please inform yourself about the execution of the Romanovs, you can look at this thread if you’re interested.
The situation in Yekaterinburg was singular, which did not allow for the positive outcome you have described
In principle I totally agree, however when you are in a civil war against reactionaries that have expeditionary forces from virtually all imperialist of that time at their side, eliminating potential morale boosts and centres of legitimization (“We have recovered the tsarevich from the hands of the filthy judeo-bolshevics and will fight to the death for him to reclaim his rightful throne” e.g.) is (unfortunately) a purely pragmatical matter…
In principle I totally agree, however when you are in a civil war against reactionaries that have expeditionary forces from virtually all imperialist of that time at their side, eliminating potential morale boosts and centres of legitimization (“We have recovered the tsarevich from the hands of the filthy judeo-bolshevics and will fight to the death for him to reclaim his rightful throne” e.g.) is (unfortunately) a purely pragmatical matter…
Forgive me for finding “These children living might encourage our enemies” insufficient inducement to cold-blooded murder. Any other ‘pragmatic’ solutions of murdering children you want to endorse? “Nits make lice” from American genocidaires against Native tribes? Or perhaps Zionists murdering Palestinian children for signaling support for anti-Zionism?
Where did I say anything about my assessment being universal all of a sudden? It was regarding a very specific context of that very singular time. You are not responding in good faith here IMO, building your own strawman and then arguing against it…
I can’t even think of any other situation about which I would say something even remotely similar.
(BTW, just to give a bit more historical context: it wasn’t even a decision by the central government, but of a local Soviet which had to act quickly as they were encroached by the whites.)
You are not responding in good faith here IMO, building your own strawman and then arguing against it…
I’m not arguing in good faith because I’m pointing out that the very basis of your argument could be used to justify any number of ‘pragmatic’ atrocities, and “This time it was okay because the murderers were wearing my favorite shade of red” is not a very convincing principle for exemption?
I can’t even think of any other situation about which I would say something even remotely similar.
That should set off alarm bells in your head.
If you can’t think of any situation where you would apply a similar or the same principle, then perhaps you should re-examine on what basis you’re justifying the Romanov family’s situation. On a pre-existing principle of pragmatism? Or operating from the preconception that the murder was correct, and then working backwards to find a justification?
(BTW, just to give a bit more historical context: it wasn’t even a decision by the central government, but of a local Soviet which had to act quickly as they were encroached by the whites.)
It’s widely suspected, including by Trotsky (who approved), that Lenin gave the order. Regardless of who gave the order, it was fucking atrocious and not worth murdering children in cold-blood just to keep the survival of a fucking child from being a ‘propaganda victory’ for the enemy.
If you can’t think of any situation where you would apply a similar or the same principle, then perhaps you should re-examine on what basis you’re justifying the Romanov family’s situation. On a pre-existing principle of pragmatism? Or operating from the preconception that the murder was correct, and then working backwards to find a justification?
On the basis that I cannot recall a situation in which – in my opinion – progressive revolutionaries should have strayed from the principle of rehabilitation and avoiding harming innocents
Edit. when taken out of the context of the conversation, this might look like I’m contradicting myself. What it means: no such situation except as the one I described in the conversation prior
On the basis that I cannot recall a situation in which – in my opinion – progressive revolutionaries should have strayed from the principle of rehabilitation and avoiding harming innocents
Except wrt the Romanov family, it would seem.
It’s a tragedy that it was a reasonable choice, but a reasonable choice it was
Exactly, requiring perfection at every step forward only has the effect of you standing still.
(“Bending the stick without breaking it” sums it up quite nicely IMO, not forgetting your principles, but without clinging to a dogma and allowing yourself to be pragmatic when the situation requires it, especially when it’s a matter of survival)
and then immediately turn into imperialistic dictatorship and start opressing your and nearby countries themselves
I don’t think you know what any of those words mean in the context of political economy. None of them apply to the early USSR…
Lenin was a right wing communist of sorts, believing in national self determination (which is the reason why Ukraine exists today at all) + the USSR was created as an equal union of peoples (reflected in it’s bicameral legislature) with respect and promotion of local culture and languages. (Look up Korenizatsiia, which was later unfortunately replaced with Russian chauvinism when Stalin was fully at the helm)
Many local communist parties asked for a centralised government similar to France, but the more Russian central government worried a lot about how that would be misinterpreted in terms of their image.
“National self-determination except when the people disagree with me” is not much of national self-determination.
Lenin was a right wing communist of sorts, believing in national self determination (which is the reason why Ukraine exists today at all)
I beg your fucking pardon
“National self-determination except when the people disagree with me” is not much of national self-determination.
What are you referring to?
Lenin was a right wing communist of sorts, believing in national self determination (which is the reason why Ukraine exists today at all)
I beg your fucking pardon
Inside of communist currents, there are often left/right destinations. E.g. Lenin wrote “Left Wing Communism: an infantile disorder”. And AFAIK communists to the left of him, prominently Rosa Luxemburg criticised Lenin, including on “the national question” that Ukraine should not exist as a separate state or republic and that the fight for socialism must take precedence over the nationalist dreams of random intellectuals (like in the case of Ukraine, which unlike Poland or Finland, hadn’t been a separate nation of it’s own before being part of the empire.)
The modern state of Ukraine exists because of it’s status as an SSR.
Or take the Ukraine. At the beginning of the century, before the tomfoolery of “Ukrainian nationalism” with its silver rubles and its “Universals”[2] and Lenin’s hobby of an “independent Ukraine” had been invented […]
The best proof is the Ukraine, which was to play so frightful a role in the fate of the Russian Revolution. Ukrainian nationalism in Russia was something quite different from, let us say, Czechish, Polish or Finnish nationalism in that the former was a mere whim, a folly of a few dozen petty-bourgeois intellectuals without the slightest roots in the economic, political or psychological relationships of the country; it was without any historical tradition, since the Ukraine never formed a nation or government, was without any national culture, except for the reactionary-romantic poems of Shevschenko. It is exactly as if, one fine day, the people living in the Wasserkante[3] should want to found a new Low-German (Plattdeutsche) nation and government! And this ridiculous pose of a few university professors and students was inflated into a political force by Lenin and his comrades through their doctrinaire agitation concerning the “right of self-determination including etc.” To what was at first a mere farce they lent such importance that the farce became a matter of the most deadly seriousness – not as a serious national movement for which, afterward as before, there are no roots at all, but as a shingle and rallying flag of counter-revolution! At Brest, out of this addled egg crept the German bayonets.
From: Rosa Luxemburg, The Russian Revolution, Chapter 3: The Nationalities Question
Disclaimer: this does not reflect my opinion
You got banned for giving citations from a reputable source, Jesus Christ.
What are you referring to?
Rejection of democratic elections, rejection of national self-determination by non-Bolshevik parties, rejection of attempted secessions from the Russian Empire by force, attempted invasion of former Russian vassals, suppression of native national movements who failed to lick Bolshevik boots, mass repression by secret police of national expressions of discontent…
Inside of communist currents, there are often left/right destinations.
That’s not what I was questioning.
that Ukraine should not exist as a separate state or republic and that the fight for socialism must take precedence over the nationalist dreams of random intellectuals (like in the case of Ukraine, which unlike Poland or Finland, hadn’t been a separate nation of it’s own before being part of the empire.)
Jesus fucking Christ, what
Ukraine was much more of a nation prior to Muscovite domination than fucking Finland.
Disclaimer: this does not reflect my opinion
“This doesn’t reflect my opinion, I’m just using it as a response when questioned about what I was saying”
How utterly lovely that you decide, in support of Russian imperialism, to quote a German attempting to speak authoritively for the people of Ukraine, who clearly did not understand that they were not a real nation. Good thing they had a German intellectual simping for Russian hegemony (because it was painted the right shade of red) to set them straight, bless their little colonial hearts!
I guess detached activists from the imperial core explaining to colonized people why their nationality isn’t real is completely okay if the colonized folk aren’t POC.
I say this as someone who does not dislike Rosa Luxemburg in general, and that even very progressive people are still necessarily constrained by the thinking of their time, but goddamn if that isn’t one hell of a late 19th century/early 20th century take.
I thought you were confused about the left/right wing communism thing, also Luxemburg was Polish herself… -_-
I thought you were confused about the left/right wing communism thing, also Luxemburg was Polish herself… -_-
Who lived in Germany most of her adult life, was deeply involved in German politics, and was a naturalized German citizen.
Christ, do I want to ask if you’d apply the same standard to naturalized American citizens who talk about how colonized countries aren’t ‘real’ and should just knuckle under to foreign oppressors?
You really need to work on your reading comprehension
You really need to work on your reading comprehension
What do you think I misread?
all these facts you describe don’t make any sense considering no freedom of speech, Red Terror, and still disgusting attitude to the provinces (look up first Holodomor 1921-23)
You had me at royal family
Shot but were carrying too many diamons and jewels and the bullets deflected.
That seems like a more pragmatic way to hoard wealth than NFTs or stock options or whatever.
Diamonds are as artificially inflated as stocks. NFTs are no longer artificially inflated, they’re correctly recognized as worthless.
With China churning out artificial diamonds that are virtually perfect, I hope that the industry will finally collapse on itself
I’ve seen some sentiment (artificial, I’m sure) that artificial diamonds are “too perfect,” but I don’t think it’s really catching on. It definitely seems like Gen X is the last generation to really care about expensive diamonds, which is good.
They are “too perfect” in the sense that they – in contrast to all the kinks “natural” diamonds have – are virtually flawless and obviously threatening established luxury industries (which is kinda based NGL)
Can we please do this to all MAGA voters?
LITERALLY MURDER ALL PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF THEIR POLITICAL BELIEFS
(Edit: this is a reference to the communist vision quest in Disco Elysium, not meant as an accusation or even directed towards OP)
don’t want to be killed for being a nazi, don’t vote for Nazis
Forgive my anger and frustration, the current political climate and crisis involving everything going on currently is making me froth at the mouth like an ape.
It was not meant as an affront to you, DW. I just had to think of Disco Elysium and thus made the reference. I do not actually believe that is your position OE anything like that ~w~
On the one hand, conservatism, an authoritarian, pro-oligarchic ideology has no legitimate place in a democracy. On the other, mass murder is still bad, mmm-kay.
That’s millions of people, and I guarantee you’ll start to feel sad and demoralized before you’ve even made a dent. Might as well just skip to the industrialized version.
They’re so cute when they understand this.
