I don’t think you know what any of those words mean in the context of political economy. None of them apply to the early USSR…
Lenin was a right wing communist of sorts, believing in national self determination (which is the reason why Ukraine exists today at all) + the USSR was created as an equal union of peoples (reflected in it’s bicameral legislature) with respect and promotion of local culture and languages. (Look up Korenizatsiia, which was later unfortunately replaced with Russian chauvinism when Stalin was fully at the helm)
Many local communist parties asked for a centralised government similar to France, but the more Russian central government worried a lot about how that would be misinterpreted in terms of their image.
“National self-determination except when the people disagree with me” is not much of national self-determination.
What are you referring to?
Lenin was a right wing communist of sorts, believing in national self determination (which is the reason why Ukraine exists today at all)
I beg your fucking pardon
Inside of communist currents, there are often left/right destinations. E.g. Lenin wrote “Left Wing Communism: an infantile disorder”.
And AFAIK communists to the left of him, prominently Rosa Luxemburg criticised Lenin, including on “the national question” that Ukraine should not exist as a separate state or republic and that the fight for socialism must take precedence over the nationalist dreams of random intellectuals (like in the case of Ukraine, which unlike Poland or Finland, hadn’t been a separate nation of it’s own before being part of the empire.)
The modern state of Ukraine exists because of it’s status as an SSR.
Or take the Ukraine. At the beginning of the century, before the tomfoolery of “Ukrainian nationalism” with its silver rubles and its “Universals”[2] and Lenin’s hobby of an “independent Ukraine” had been invented […]
The best proof is the Ukraine, which was to play so frightful a role in the fate of the Russian Revolution. Ukrainian nationalism in Russia was something quite different from, let us say, Czechish, Polish or Finnish nationalism in that the former was a mere whim, a folly of a few dozen petty-bourgeois intellectuals without the slightest roots in the economic, political or psychological relationships of the country; it was without any historical tradition, since the Ukraine never formed a nation or government, was without any national culture, except for the reactionary-romantic poems of Shevschenko. It is exactly as if, one fine day, the people living in the Wasserkante[3] should want to found a new Low-German (Plattdeutsche) nation and government! And this ridiculous pose of a few university professors and students was inflated into a political force by Lenin and his comrades through their doctrinaire agitation concerning the “right of self-determination including etc.” To what was at first a mere farce they lent such importance that the farce became a matter of the most deadly seriousness – not as a serious national movement for which, afterward as before, there are no roots at all, but as a shingle and rallying flag of counter-revolution! At Brest, out of this addled egg crept the German bayonets.
Rejection of democratic elections, rejection of national self-determination by non-Bolshevik parties, rejection of attempted secessions from the Russian Empire by force, attempted invasion of former Russian vassals, suppression of native national movements who failed to lick Bolshevik boots, mass repression by secret police of national expressions of discontent…
Inside of communist currents, there are often left/right destinations.
That’s not what I was questioning.
that Ukraine should not exist as a separate state or republic and that the fight for socialism must take precedence over the nationalist dreams of random intellectuals (like in the case of Ukraine, which unlike Poland or Finland, hadn’t been a separate nation of it’s own before being part of the empire.)
Jesus fucking Christ, what
Ukraine was much more of a nation prior to Muscovite domination than fucking Finland.
Disclaimer: this does not reflect my opinion
“This doesn’t reflect my opinion, I’m just using it as a response when questioned about what I was saying”
How utterly lovely that you decide, in support of Russian imperialism, to quote a German attempting to speak authoritively for the people of Ukraine, who clearly did not understand that they were not a real nation. Good thing they had a German intellectual simping for Russian hegemony (because it was painted the right shade of red) to set them straight, bless their little colonial hearts!
I guess detached activists from the imperial core explaining to colonized people why their nationality isn’t real is completely okay if the colonized folk aren’t POC.
I say this as someone who does not dislike Rosa Luxemburg in general, and that even very progressive people are still necessarily constrained by the thinking of their time, but goddamn if that isn’t one hell of a late 19th century/early 20th century take.
I thought you were confused about the left/right wing communism thing, also Luxemburg was Polish herself… -_-
Who lived in Germany most of her adult life, was deeply involved in German politics, and was a naturalized German citizen.
Christ, do I want to ask if you’d apply the same standard to naturalized American citizens who talk about how colonized countries aren’t ‘real’ and should just knuckle under to foreign oppressors?
A great many things; every other time I see you, you’re in a dumb argument because you’re misunderstanding or deliberately misconstruing the other’s point.
A great many things; every other time I see you, you’re in a dumb argument because you’re misunderstanding or deliberately misconstruing the other’s point.
Okay. Limit yourself to this conversation, to the comment you responded to.
all these facts you describe don’t make any sense considering no freedom of speech, Red Terror, and still disgusting attitude to the provinces (look up first Holodomor 1921-23)
and then immediately turn into imperialistic dictatorship and start opressing your and nearby countries themselves
I don’t think you know what any of those words mean in the context of political economy. None of them apply to the early USSR…
Lenin was a right wing communist of sorts, believing in national self determination (which is the reason why Ukraine exists today at all) + the USSR was created as an equal union of peoples (reflected in it’s bicameral legislature) with respect and promotion of local culture and languages. (Look up Korenizatsiia, which was later unfortunately replaced with Russian chauvinism when Stalin was fully at the helm)
Many local communist parties asked for a centralised government similar to France, but the more Russian central government worried a lot about how that would be misinterpreted in terms of their image.
“National self-determination except when the people disagree with me” is not much of national self-determination.
I beg your fucking pardon
What are you referring to?
Inside of communist currents, there are often left/right destinations. E.g. Lenin wrote “Left Wing Communism: an infantile disorder”. And AFAIK communists to the left of him, prominently Rosa Luxemburg criticised Lenin, including on “the national question” that Ukraine should not exist as a separate state or republic and that the fight for socialism must take precedence over the nationalist dreams of random intellectuals (like in the case of Ukraine, which unlike Poland or Finland, hadn’t been a separate nation of it’s own before being part of the empire.)
The modern state of Ukraine exists because of it’s status as an SSR.
From: Rosa Luxemburg, The Russian Revolution, Chapter 3: The Nationalities Question
Disclaimer: this does not reflect my opinion
You got banned for giving citations from a reputable source, Jesus Christ.
Rejection of democratic elections, rejection of national self-determination by non-Bolshevik parties, rejection of attempted secessions from the Russian Empire by force, attempted invasion of former Russian vassals, suppression of native national movements who failed to lick Bolshevik boots, mass repression by secret police of national expressions of discontent…
That’s not what I was questioning.
Jesus fucking Christ, what
Ukraine was much more of a nation prior to Muscovite domination than fucking Finland.
“This doesn’t reflect my opinion, I’m just using it as a response when questioned about what I was saying”
How utterly lovely that you decide, in support of Russian imperialism, to quote a German attempting to speak authoritively for the people of Ukraine, who clearly did not understand that they were not a real nation. Good thing they had a German intellectual simping for Russian hegemony (because it was painted the right shade of red) to set them straight, bless their little colonial hearts!
I guess detached activists from the imperial core explaining to colonized people why their nationality isn’t real is completely okay if the colonized folk aren’t POC.
I say this as someone who does not dislike Rosa Luxemburg in general, and that even very progressive people are still necessarily constrained by the thinking of their time, but goddamn if that isn’t one hell of a late 19th century/early 20th century take.
I thought you were confused about the left/right wing communism thing, also Luxemburg was Polish herself… -_-
Who lived in Germany most of her adult life, was deeply involved in German politics, and was a naturalized German citizen.
Christ, do I want to ask if you’d apply the same standard to naturalized American citizens who talk about how colonized countries aren’t ‘real’ and should just knuckle under to foreign oppressors?
👍👌
👎👐
You really need to work on your reading comprehension
What do you think I misread?
A great many things; every other time I see you, you’re in a dumb argument because you’re misunderstanding or deliberately misconstruing the other’s point.
Okay. Limit yourself to this conversation, to the comment you responded to.
all these facts you describe don’t make any sense considering no freedom of speech, Red Terror, and still disgusting attitude to the provinces (look up first Holodomor 1921-23)