I recently learned that voting on lemmy is not anonymous. Anyone can get information about who has upvoted and downvoted a post or comment.
In combination with your IP, this is a massive privacy (maybe even physical security) risk. Also, people can target you for your votes.
Sadly, this is something where I would prefer Reddit over Lemmy. Big tech scrapes data from both places anyways, at least Reddit is safe.
Why is public voting a massive privacy and physical threat but public posting and commenting is not?
I feel hat posts/comments are much more of a privacy exposure than any vote.
If the OP wants private voting vs their post/comments then two account would be the solution to that - this is how it is done in the backend on piefedAlso if only voting is so bad, just don’t vote. Those votes are not used for anything but ranking in lists for others, you’ll not see any difference for yourself if you stop voting.
It is a social forum. Voting and commenting is the core part of the experience.
Yes. So does seeing how you are voting and commenting.
I don’t understand
So you still don’t understand that publicly accessible votes come from publicly viewable actions of users and can be tracked back to them???
If you’re a lurker who votes, voting would be your only exposure.
If you are a lurker that votes then I very little that some random could tie back to your home address or even IP
Which only has rather limited information derivable from it. The most “identifying” would be to vote regularly on a community dedicated to your local area.
If you don’t trust your instance with knowing your IP-address, then the issue is not going to be solved by “anonymous voting”. Because your instance has to know if you voted on something or not, so votes cannot be done multiple times. This is unavoidable and equal to the situation when using reddit. Except that you can choose a different instance if you distrust the current instance.
OP either did not think through what he is claiming or he is driven by an agenda.
Both of them are but when a person comments, they willingly put out their opinion in the public. Voting is meant to be anonymous (like irl).
Also, votes have a massive amount as compared to comments. An average user might comment on 1 post for every 50 they vote on (a number I pulled out of my ass)
Voting is meant to be anonymous
You THINK it should be anonymous. I disagree so did Lemmy creators.
I’d dare say lemmy creators wouldn’t mind private votes, they chose not to display voting counts to normal users after all, but that’s not how the ActivityPub protocol is built and honestly can’t be built if you want federated votes.
dude is just bent out of shape because they got called out for disagreeing Russia should go home and leave Ukraine alone.
I mean it is kind of a dick move to spy on downvotes and then demand that someone respond to you. The dude is wrong as hell, but I do agree with the overall principle that not every vote needs to be subject to someone getting interrogated as to why they voted that way.
Their shock at finding out that it works that way is, of course, why the currently Lemmy UI is badly designed because it creates the illusion for people that their votes are private. They definitely should not do that.
It’s not something I usually do, but I’m tired of not calling out people on shitty opinions in regards to fascism. especially when it comes to a simple perspective of “this bad thing is bad”.
it’s like someone downvoting because a comment said “fuck cancer”. like…why? my mind can’t even fathom why anyone would dislike that kind of message unless they themselves are cancer or advocate for the advancement of cancer.
typically I don’t give a shit about downvotes, but it just really rubbed me the wrong way.
Yeah, I get it. You’re not wrong.
People are free to their opinions. Not everyone will fit into your concept of ethics. If you are calling out someone for their non-conventional opinion, you are against free speech.
I feel like you misunderstand what free speech is.
Calling someone out for any opinion is part of free speech.
Makes sense
To elaborate, the ability to call someone out is literally “free speech”. The backlash you may get for said call out, in speech form, is also part of free speech.
If the government locks you up for what you said, that is not free speech.
If you are calling out someone for their non-conventional opinion, you are against free speech.
Nope, that’s not what that means. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences of your speech and it doesn’t mean guaranteed anonymous speech. And as far as the constitution is concerned, the right to freedom of speech only means the government can’t stop you from expressing your opinion.
So you have the right to say what you want without government interference, but other people can tell you that what you said is shitty, your employer can fire you because you opinion isn’t consistent with their values, the forum/venue where you expressed your opinion can ban you, etc.
Free speech just means the government isn’t allowed to punish you for only saying things (and even that had a whole constellation of big fuckin asterisks on it). Free speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
I read the thread and it was definitely worth calling him out this time.
Exactly my point. It is a form of witch-hunt. People are too focused on my views on the Russia-Ukraine than the actual topic.
You’re not accurately representing what they said.
this could easily be solved.
Russia go home. Leave Ukraine.…is on par with telling people to “get a higher-paying job” to fix their finances or “just get friends” to solve loneliness. I don’t downvote a comment like this because it wouldn’t solve the issue, but because the proposed “solution” is completely out of touch with reality.
Good rule of thumb for online discussion: if someone offers a simple solution to a complex problem, they probably don’t know what they’re talking about.
I mean…I am “they”.
honestly I’m at a loss of even how to respond to your critique. you’re comparing first world problems and the primary request of the Ukrainian government like it’s apples to apples.
I think if either of us is underestimating the complexity of the situation, it’s you.
many of the problems that are plaguing Ukraine right now is Russia. many of the problems plaguing Russia right now is their illegal occupation of Ukraine. the simplest solution right now is for Russia to leave Ukraine. after that, discussions of reciprocity can be held. I use that term loosely here though because Russia is clearly the one at fault and Ukraine has been acting in self-defense, as such Ukraine shouldn’t be required to repay anything to Russia.
also, if you’re coming to Lemmy to have a deep political discussion on the finer points of political discourse (especially on the topic of Russia), you might not be that intelligent. maybe read a book on the subject and find a discussion group at a local library if you want to engage with an intellectual.
remember, these are comments not thesis statements.
“You might not be that intelligent” isn’t the counter argument you might think it is.
You misrepresented what OP said. Plain and simple. That’s what I’m calling you out on.
Thank you for saying it. I thought I was going mad.
Ok at the risk of being downvoted to oblivion, why do you think Russia invaded Ukraine?
Mind you, I still think Russia did the wrong thing but there is nuance.
ah yes all those times that countries have invaded other countries for good reasons
There is no nuance. Russia amassed an invasion force at the Ukrainian border for a week before entering their sovereign territory.
Russia postured at the border and had been threatening to advance for months before that even.
Russia was supporting Russian separatists and funding domestic terrorists within Ukraine before the invasion.
the only reason why this happened is because the Ukrainian public rebelled against the Russian fed corruption and held an actual legitimate election and removed the installed puppets.
if there is any nuance here, it’s in the multiple ways that Russia had attempted to circumvent the will of the Ukrainian people.
why do you think Russia invaded Ukraine?
To take it over. You know, like they have done with number of countries number of times before?
No, it’s on par with telling someone “Well, you shouldn’t keep driving drunk then” or “You should 100% stop contacting her and move on if she keeps instantly blocking you on every new platform you try on.” Certain actions really are under voluntary control. We’re not telling Russia they really need to shape up that GDP if they want the world to take them seriously. We’re asking them to stop deciding to kill innocent people. Seems legit. The obstacle is that they really want to, and they’re reluctant to stop.
(The analogy is flawed because there’s no real equivalency between driving drunk and maybe rolling the dice on killing one family, and yourself, versus doing it to members of a million families. But the simplicity of the solution is the same.)
There’s no real cost to stopping drunk driving. Putin, on the other hand, has gone all in on the war in Ukraine. “Just pull your troops from Ukraine” is about as realistic as “just shoot yourself,” because from his perspective, the outcome is basically the same in both scenarios.
Sure, it would be nice if Russia simply left Ukraine, but put yourself in Putin’s position - it’s a complete non-solution. You don’t fold after going all in. It’s an incredibly naive thing to say, and it ignores the reality and complexity of the situation entirely. It’s a thought-terminating cliché - a feel-good slogan people toss around to avoid critical thinking, while fishing for upvotes from like-minded people.
Sure, it would be nice if Russia simply left Ukraine, but put yourself in Putin’s position - it’s a complete non-solution. You don’t fold after going all in. It’s an incredibly naive thing to say
This is exactly the kind of logic someone would use to justify either of the examples I brought up. Exactly.
The fact that he really doesn’t want to stop killing innocent people, and so he would have to pay the “cost” of doing something he doesn’t want to do, isn’t a justification. I would actually really like for him to be arrested on that ICC warrant and try to explain this exactly logic at the Hague. I think it would be great. I would support him using that defense, I think it would be wonderful to see. People could decide whether to accept the logic, and then whether to hang him or not depending on whether they bought into it as a good reason for continuing to kill innocent people on an industrial scale.
Explanation is not excuse. This has absolutely nothing to do with justifying anything they’ve done.
So what they’ve done in Ukraine is completely unjustified? In your opinion?
Wow, I’m dumbfounded by this logic.
Let’s say you and I live next door to each other. One day, my family and I break into your house and move in. You tell us to leave, but we punch you in the face. You try fighting back, but we don’t leave, and days and weeks go by. I’ve moved some of my furniture into your house. How would you feel if people started saying that the problem is now too complex. I’ve obviously invested too much in living in your house for me to just pack up and go home. The solution is going to have to be more nuanced than that.
This seems to be the logic you’re defending.
Nothing I’ve said is in any way defending the invasion.
It’s the logic of what I replied to that doesn’t make sense to me.
There’s no real cost to stopping drunk driving.
There isn’t one for Russia to go home neither.
put yourself in Putin’s position - it’s a complete non-solution
You are taking a fucking piss.
put yourself in Putin’s position - it’s a complete non-solution. You don’t fold after going all in.
That’s literally no one’s problem but Putin’s. He has committed crimes. He should accept the personal reprecussions. You’re basically making the “affluenza” argument for someone who has been committing war crimes and murdering civilians because they dared to want to have a representative government.
Ok I have ro ask, have you studied philosophy or language? Your comments are so well formed with proper terminology.
Thank you!
No, I haven’t - I’m a plumber by training. I credit my autism for my precision of speech, and as for my philosophy and the vocabulary around it, I’d say that’s simply the result of a few decades of debating these topics online, combined with thousands of hours of podcasts and YouTube videos covering these topics.
It’s rare that I say anything completely original. If something I say comes across as well-crafted, it’s probably because I’ve said the exact same thing a dozen times before.
This is just bait lol
Get a room you two
I am not bent out of shape. I said what I said and I stand by it. I am surprised about the public nature of my votes.
Would be my question as well. It seems quite obvious that if you participate in publicly viewable discussion, that the stuff you do is publicly viewable.
If you don’t want it associated to your physical person, use a VPN and unidentifiable account name.
(And the statement “at least reddit is safe” seems absolutely ridiculous to me.)
Reddit is safer than Lemmy. There cannot be witchhunts on lurkers. IP info is not accessible to anyone but the company.
reddit safer than lemmy lol
How is Reddit less secure than Lemmy?
you can be sure that reddit tracks you; often you cant even open it when using a vpn. they have an approximate location from your ip, possible movement data when their client is on your phone, and then they enrich their data with external datasets. those are then sold. reddit is a bit more private than facebook, but not as much as you believe. all those sources combined mean they pretty much know who you are.
I agree that they track and are shit at privacy. I specifically find it safer because only the company can track me and not the users.
you know that data is being sold to hundreds of third parties, right? I`m pretty sure that more people get access to that data than there are lemmy users. but you do you, mate
This is a decent point. Ignore the inane downvotes you’re getting for simply expressing your opinion in a polite and good-faith manner.
Your IP isn’t accessible to anyone but your instance admin, that doesn’t federate.
As long as we’re talking about privacy issues on Lemmy, I’m pretty sure that isn’t true. I strongly suspect that it would be possible to set up a tool that would post image links, or even just track the accesses for your own avatar, in a way where you could statistically be pretty confident of associating IP addresses with usernames after participating in Lemmy for a while (correlating people accessing your avatar image with replying to particular people’s comments and then them replying to those comments, sending DMs to particular people from a not-very-much used account, something like that.)
I think modern versions of Lemmy can proxy images to reduce this, but it’s hard enough to do robustly that I would bet that there is some kind of way the information leaks out. It’s really hard to prevent this kind of thing even if you’re trying hard to make it difficult and the Lemmy devs don’t seem to be trying all that hard.
I don’t even think image proxying is on by default in Lemmy, although I just checked and this Piefed instance is doing it.
Is this a joke? Are you here as some pro reddit propaganda machine?
How is Reddit less secure than Lemmy?
If someone starts to harrass you due to your voting habits (which I’ve never heard of happening) you can just block them and move on with your life. The difference between someone saying mean things to you and someone writing them is that you can just stop reading.
Blocking is a bandaid to the problem.
If a person climbs onto a stage to make a statement, and instead of getting on stage to make a counterpoint someone just shouts “booo” from the audience, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to demand that person to show their face. There’s a certain level of cowardice in simply downvoting without explaining why you disagree. There’s no option to post anonymously here, so it’s not obvious to me that voting should be anonymous either. If people upvote or downvote, they should be willing to stand behind that - and if someone asks for an explanation, you have three choices: ignore them, block them, or explain. I guess there’s also the option to simply not vote at all.
If it were up to me, I’d hide vote counts from users entirely. It’s not all bad, but I’d argue the net effect is negative. Visible votes encourages toxic behavior. When someone makes a controversial claim, you can first downvote them, then dunk on them in a reply - and now they’re being downvoted into oblivion while you get applause for your smug comment. It feels like you’ve won the debate when in reality, nobody’s mind changed. Heavily downvoted comments also prime readers to dislike them before they even read them, instead of approaching with a neutral mindset and then forming their own opinion - or reading further to see other perspectives. As it stands, the system mostly trains people to recognize what’s popular on a platform so they can self-censor to avoid downvotes, and feel validated for shouting down people who voice unpopular opinions.
So, if someone asks me to explain why I downvoted something, I might explain or I might not - but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable thing to ask. On the other hand, if someone makes it their personal mission to follow me around and harass me because I downvoted their comment, I think it’s unreasonable to demand the system be changed just so I don’t have to deal with it. There’s already a solution for that: blocking them.
If people are harassing you privately, I’m sorry and I’m sure you can message a mod. If you like to express your opinion through votes and adding to the pile but don’t like others knowing you did so, you’re a coward.
I don’t understand why people are calling me a coward. I gave an unpopular opinion, I stood by it and then made a post that might subject my account to scrutiny.
I think they are referring to the point that you want your personal votes to be kept private. Some say it is a form of “cowardice” to not vote publicly.
Personally I see your point is very valid and at least this should be more actively described when signing up for Lemmy and that obviously your instance admins can see everything and you should be very careful (e.g. VPN) if you’d like to participate privately in a conversation. Maybe this is not the right platform for you then ufortunately. Everything in life has its pros and cons and certainly Lemmy is not perfect.
I don’t want just my votes to be private, though. It should be private for everyone. Why are people not seeing that?
Yes.
Both of them are but when a person comments, they willingly put out their opinion in the public. Voting is meant to be anonymous (like irl).
Also, votes have a massive amount as compared to comments. An average user might comment on 1 post for every 50 they vote on (a number I pulled out of my ass)
Voting is meant to be anonymous (like irl).
Says who? Voting/likes are public on a lot of social media sites, as long as the content itself is public. The only mainstream ones I can think of where it’s not are YouTube and reddit.
The thing is they make it extremely clear that votes are public by letting you see who voted right next to the button.
Lemmy hides this feature and most users don’t know about it.
Yeah, I agree that this isn’t ideal.
That is not true. Most votes irl are in fact public to the audience. Did you ever participate in a democratically organized group? Local council votes are usually done by raising hands. Votes in HOA meetings are usually done by raising hands. Your sports club deciding on a new executive and treasurer? Guess what. Raising hands.
at least Reddit is safe.
Lmao, what!? Reddit tries their best to know exactly who you are, where you live, your education, where you work, etc… And then they sell that data to anyone.
They have that data, true. But they don’t harass me.
Yes, exactly! This is just what they hoard on iOS devices:
You are confusing privacy and security
Don’t tell anyone, but your posts and comments are also public.
I know you are being sarcastic and edgy but point is that voting is assumed to be private by the average person because it is anonymous in elections, it is anonymous on the closest social platform Reddit and popular websites like youtube.
And reddit also has a problen where you can use bots to farm upvotes and because you cant see that information means you cant tell if posts are legit or propaganda
Anyone can make multiple accounts and vote farm here too.
No shit, but if you’re getting 1000 upvotes from the same bangledeshi or Russian IP you can a least figure it out, hey its prolly not legit…
Only you can see this comment Daniskarma. The Leering League of Lemmy SEES you Daniskarma and we have taken notice. Cease your efforts to spread information about public posts and comments, or ELSE Daniskarma. We’re watching you.
Why is this comment completely empty?
In combination with your IP, this is a massive privacy (maybe even physical security) risk. Also, people can target you for your votes.
No.
Why are you saying IP addresses are publicly shown here and why is (almost) no one correcting you? That would’ve been an enormous privacy risk that would’ve required intentionally fucking users over. Just doesn’t even make sense to write what you did about IP addresses. Seems like you’re just hoping to cause some panic.
Admins can get them. It is not available to everyone.
Who says that Reddit isn’t selling upvote/downvote and IP info? Or sharing with govts?
I am not worried about big tech because they scrape everything anyways. I am more worried about the witchhunt and potential admin abuse.
And even this does not happen, it should be made clear that votes are public
Why are you worried about admin abuse? If you are worried that your admin will abuse you, you should switch to an instance you trust more.
How to decide who to trust?
Reputation, word of mouth, history, etc. Same way you decide anything else you consume.
How do you pick where you go shopping? You pick the closest one. Then if it turns out to be bad, you go elsewhere.
They 100% are
The IP address thing is not real, though
Just choose a nickname that is random word+4 random digits and don’t reuse it on other services
This is the way. Randomise your usernames and use a password manager to keep track of them.
How do you do this and where can I find this info because I’d like to know.
I’ll start by asking you if I upvoted or downvoted this post.
You have to be an admin / mod?. EDIT: (or as @jeena@piefed.jeena.net has pointed out a federated service publishes it)
The weird part of this experiment was that I intentionally didn’t vote at all. I didn’t upvote or downvote … all I did was comment just to see what would happen.
Any comment starts with a +1 from the commenter
Freedom is a luxury and anonymity is a crime. After all, how can any slave think to hide his intentions from his masters?
I’m not a jackass with downvotes, so I’m not worried.
What do you mean?
I don’t use downvotes unless someone is factually wrong in a big way, posts something homophobic / racist / etc, or acts rude without cause and the like. Some people downvote every comment they disagree with. I don’t think that’s how downvotes ought to be used. Nor do I brigade.
It’s currently impossible to have private upvotes and downvotes with a federated service. It could probably be done, but it’d need a big revamp of the ActivityPub protocol, and apps would need to adopt the new protocol version. It’s not trivial.
Just hiding the data in the UI doesn’t solve it, because the data is still there.
Additionally, a lot of other social media sites have public votes/likes, as long as the content is public. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Discord, LinkedIn, Telegram (if you consider it social media?), and probably some others all have public likes by default.
It is okay to have public votes but it should be made clear to the users. Instagram and others allow you to see who has liked easily (next to the like button), so everyone knows it is public. Lemmy does not let me see who voted easily and it being a reddit alternative further makes it seem anonymous.
Lemmy does have a way to view votes, but it’s only visible to admins. It’s weird because admins can view votes for anything, even posts and comments not on the server they admin. I’m not sure why they did it that way.
This shows to all
Are you sure about that? Reddit is a fucking cesspool.
It is not a cesspool if you stick to niche communities and avoid scrolling r/all
I got kicked off of Reddit for saying “fuck Ukraine” when some little bundle of twigs said they liked a certain Van Gogh painting because “it matches the color of the Ukraine flag”. That was in r/museum, where you’d think there wouldn’t be much political horseshit.
Wow, that is something. People are so fucking touchy about this war. This extreme prejudice against people who are even slightly anti Ukraine are banned left and right, no nuance.
To be clear, I’m not against the Ukraine people, just their corrupt fascist government, just like us (the U.S.).
A lot of people here still refuse to understand that Lemmy, as it currently exists, is a privacy nightmare, and the voting thing is just the top of the iceberg. There are several de-anonymization attacks possible involving dynamically serving different content to different users. This, combined with the public voting makes it possible that someone can dox an account and expose a lot more information than other forums where that information is more private.
Public votes also open the fediverse up to much worse astroturfing IMO. It’s incredible feedback for bots and trolls to see exactly who is interacting with their posts and comments. It’s frustrating that a bunch of people here have convinced themselves of the opposite, and insist that public voting is the only way to combat brigades and trolls, which is an incredibly shortsighted stance which doesn’t scale nearly as well as it does in the other direction.
Just don’t say anything that you wouldn’t say in public. I’m willing to defend anything I’ve ever said here.
You mean to say:
"Wer nichts zu verbergen hat, hat auch nichts zu befürchten"
“If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.”
How quick we are to adopt the logical fallacy of Joseph Goebbels when we want to protect our creature comforts, rather than our privacy.
I’d like if you didn’t tell me what I mean to say, thanks.
iirc someone got banned from like 25 subs because they downvoted a single post that said “I want YOU to generate more AI slop” and the mod got pissed and power tripped super hard
It shouldn’t be private. I want to know which members of the community lean one way or another through their voting record, it makes me understand them better and allows me to call them out on it. In fact, I wish it were openly displayed like in LSA. But AA women are a brave and ‘real’ group of people, at least comparatively, I guess. 🤷😅
OP, you’re a coward!
I am a coward for having a different opinion and then putting it on display after being called out about it?
having a different opinion
By “having different opinion” you mean justifying Putin’s aggression? You have rightly been called out about it. I suggest you should stick to Lemmy.ml next time.
You are following me around and replying to every comment. Please do something better with your time.
You are extrapolating one comment to mean I am a Russian supporter, zero nuance.
You are extrapolating one comment to mean I am a Russian supporter
That you?:
I made that comment saying that it doesn’t make sense from their point of view.
Also, following me around is not something worthwhile.
You made a number of pro-Putin comments so stop lying. Also, don’t flatter yourself 🙄
I am not exactly pro-Putin but let’s assume you are correct. How does it justify your behaviour?
I don’t think worrying about upvote is necessary im just saying
If you ever get banned for the way you vote then abandon that reddit space.
What do you mean by Reddit space?
Many subreddits ban you for interacting with subreddits they don’t like for personal reasons.
If the same thing happens here it’s our duty as users to abandon that space
