I feel like accidentally commenting there is a Lemmy right of passage. It got me, and continues to almost get me. They generally have good discussion.
I got banned from that sub for “sounding like a man” then when I told them I’m non binary and so should be able to post their according to their rules they didn’t respond
I thought the plural of Ferengi was Ferengi.
A person whose username appears in this post has asked me to blur their user name, this is not some that is possible for me to do. Only the OP has the ability to make edits to their post. I am going to remove it for now as this is the only way I can affect the post. If OP wants to blur the user names I’ll restore the post. Thanks for understanding.
Edit: post has had user name obscured so I am restoring it. Thanks guys!
Eh, I only ever see that community when a bait post makes it to the front page.
Honestly, I just assumed it was a really elaborate troll group and didn’t bother engaging.
Turns out, a community exclusive to some gender almost inevitably turns into a hate pool, exactly because the most common scenario in which they are needed is “let’s shit on someone and not let them defend themselves”.
Naturally, those excluded find a way to get into the conversation to stand up for themselves. When men come together to spread hateful takes on women, this naturally puts women in a position to defend, respond, and possibly retaliate. The same works the other way around.
And honestly - it’s how it should be. Those spreading hate and silencing all other voices should not be given platform for it. Let’s remain constructive and keep the conversation going. Division and hate hurts and ends up gross for everyone.
Now for a thought exercise.
How many of those men that commented and kept commenting after being corrected were just LLMs?
Would it be actual zero? Or would there be at least one?
People want to be a part of everything nowadays. I just want to escape to an island sorrounded by AI instead of these people.
I pray and hope that it’s not a feminist community, but I would bet my ass that most of the women in that community ironically consider themselves feminists.
Incel behavior includes using “female” as a noun when talking about women. Using “female” as an adjective is perfectly normal and common. It is fine to write “female coworker” instead of “coworker who is a woman.”
Some people are hypersensitive to wrongspeak.
I don’t think people are bothered by “female coworker”, which is perfectly normal. It’s the reference to a “female-only” community, when the actual com is called WomensStuff and describes itself as “women only” and “a women’s community”.
Not every female is a woman. Some of them are ladies or girls.
I don’t know what to else to say, the community describes itself as “women only” and he described it as being “female only”. You could (but probably shouldn’t) take it up with that community if you really feel their “women only” rule excludes girls. But I’m not sure I see how it excludes “ladies” which are generally considered a subset or synonym of “women”.
To continue your point, it’s true that not every’ female’ is a woman, indeed not every female is human. You get female seahorses, penguins and even female plants (dioecious ants like asparagus or holly). But for most English speakers, in most situations, female is an adjective and not a noun. So, you might ‘have a female friend’ , but you’re not usually ‘friends with a female’.
In my experience, the only linguistic situations where it is common to use female as a noun are 1) in scientific writing “the male mantis is decapitated by the larger female”, and even their is usually just to avoid repeating the name of species. Or, 2) within groups of akward men. I’m not sure if they’re trying to sound intelligent by aping scientific terminology, or are so removed from regular contact with women that they see them almost as another species.
Obviously it doesn’t mean that everyone who talks about ‘females’ is an incel, but its use is highly linked to people who spend time in communities that don’t involve a lot of women. Just as not everyone who uses “bogan” is Australian, but most of them are. Or, have spent a lot of time in Australian-adjacent situations.
Maybe it’s just me, but in female-only community, I’m using female as part of a composed adjective. I’d say male-only community too, it just feels more natural. In fact, in an earlier comment I wrote women only, and then writing man only felt SO bad that I changed both to female and male.
Now that I think about it it’s probably because I used man instead of men. I’ll change both back but OOP miiight have followed my logic? Idk
In trans-inclusive spaces we use “woman,” in reference to the gender, as opposed to female, which usually designates sex.
Like a nature documentary, for example: “The female meetkat seeks out her pack,” as opposed to “The woman meetkat hollers at the girls.”
Ok. I somehow missed that. I scanned for other uses of “female” a few times but was blinded to the one right next to coworker.
Incel behavior includes using “female” as a noun when talking about women.
Non-incels, too. Women, too.
The noun “female” isn’t a problem. Some don’t mind. Seriously. And it’s used self-referentially “in-group”: it shows up in feminist book titles, in dating communities (eg, “F4F/M”), classifieds (eg, “need a roommate […] females only”), etc. In conventional language, it’s an acceptable word.
The problem isn’t so much the word, but its usage, ie, the message. These superficial word criticisms fail to meaningfully engage the fuller context & meaning.
Imagine we make the name for an entire class a derogatory word! Meanwhile, the name for other major gender/sex remains innocuous. Seems like classic stigmatization: who is that serving? Is opposition to the noun “female” unwittingly subscribing to stigmatization & sexist thinking of those who’d welcome the stigmatization?
Incel behavior includes using “female” as a noun when talking about women.
Sure: A -> B != B -> A
You … know that, right?
I have no idea what you’re trying to communicate, but I do understand the logical expression you used.
Probably trying to say that just because incels (allegedly) use the term “female,” it doesn’t mean that a person using that word must then be an incel.
Thanks. I’m not saying the poster is an incel. I’m just saying the objection to misuse of “female” has been primed by incels (and Ferengi). Without incels, there wouldn’t be such a knee jerk revulsion to it.
i really don’t even understand the concept of policing other people’s language use.
it’s like saying people who don’t have perfect grammar are stupid.
It’s not about the grammar. It’s the underlying mindset that might lead to specific word choices. If someone exclusively refers to women as bitches, that may be because they don’t hold much respect for women.
More subtly, if someone always refers to women as girls but rarely to men as boys, it could be telling us that they think of women as immature and less like fully formed adults.
For the word females, it’s more subtle again. It would be normal to refer to animals as male and female. For people we have the gender-specific terms man and woman. If you refer to women as females but not men as males, you may be revealing an underlying dehumanizing attitude. This is corroborated by what seems to be a common trope of incels calling women females.
It’s just…the internet I guess?
Go into the various “Ask” communities, and you’ll see things like this constantly:
Women of Lemmy, what’s something that…?
As a man, I …
Americans of Lemmy, what is your favorite…?
As a European, I…
Definitely mildly infuriating when people just butt in when they’re explicitly not the target audience of the question. If I’m somehow doing that with this reply, lol, I apologetically appreciate the irony.
I’ve accidentally commented in that community more than once when it was a generic post…but the top comment nowadays is a reminder of the rules.
Very, very different than the examples you describe
It is significantly more likely to read:
“Europeans of Lemmy……?”
“As an American……!”
I’ll take your word for it, though I assume it is the case. Like I said…it’s just the internet doing what it does (for better or worse).
“As an American” (though speaking only for myself) when I see those, I don’t even go into them because my opinion wasn’t solicited. I also don’t throw out my opinions in non-American news/politics communities for the same reason. Also, I wish that was a two-way street.
Also, I wish that was a two-way street.
That would be nice! I understand that everyone probably feels entitled to comment, given the amount of US-centric content one is bombarded with, and the shit-show our country has descended into.
Still, I see a disturbing number of upvoted comments that are just anti-Americans (i.e., not disparaging the government, but the citizenry). Shitting on people for where they were born is as valid as astrology, and nationality is not a good indicator of moral fiber.
Is that why US political posts are always filled with people from other countries?
That’s because US politics is interfering in other countries.
every countries politics interferes with its neighbors.
USA just has global reach. So does China and a few other countries.
Same idea
As a professional opinionator, I…
you get paid for internet comments?
It’s just…the internet I guess?
Yep, welcome to online social media.
The issue is that people want a public forum to be private and controlled as such.
Like if you go to a public park and want to kick out anyone who isn’t a part of your party you want ot have there… the issue is you. it’s not the other users of the public park. but there are stupid and entitled people who would host a party in a public space and then get pissed off other people are using the space.
that isn’t how it works. if you want a private party you need to have it on a private piece of land. which is totally fine. just like you can geo-IP block access to your website if you wanted.
In a public park, you can absolutely ask random people to leave your party area. Not the park, but the space you are using. Double so if you’ve gone through the official channels to reserve that section.
And that goes both ways: If someone is having an event and one inserts themselves where they’re clearly not invited, then that person very much has issues respecting others’ boundaries.
It all boils down to people respecting each other.
you’d also be an asshole. you don’t own the park. you have no exclusive rights access it or use it.
and tying it up for personal use and going around kicking out other well meaning people is just you being a selfish dick.
if you want exclusive access… hold your party/event in a private space.
it’s not that hard of a concept… but people want the privileges of exclusivity without the costs. and get butthurt over it for some stupid reason. if i wanted a party that was exclusive to my friends/invitees only I would never hold it in a public space.
i’ve inserted myself into plenty of events at parks. usually it’s only the dipshit karen types that have an issue with it. most people don’t care because they aren’t anxious/controlling types and they understand that their event in a public park means they will have to be welcome to strangers. especially when your event spills over into a walkway or heavily trafficked space.
Ummm… what do you think the park picnic space rentals are?
Also, parks with camping have reserved spots.
Seems to me either you don’t get out much, or you are one of those assholes that refuses to leave a space someone already paid to rent.
That person is giving me “I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you!” vibes. lol.
They’re kind of being an asshole all over the thread. I don’t know why women asking men to not comment in a women’s forum has them so hot and bothered, but it sure has them on the warpath lol.
Probably 'cause they commented to the same thread.
I enjoy that community as a non-participant. A user’s decision to merely interact can reveal much more than they intended to reveal - super interesting to me. Just the existence of the community pits dudes with insecurities against their own lack of self control or social tact, for all to see.
Future me might comment there too quickly after overlooking the community name. I’ll get a warranted Tsk and I’ll see myself out. No big deal. It’s not a kick in the nuts unless I make it one.
I have seen men comment there, get the reminder, and then FLIP THE FUCK OUT. As if every part of the internet should have to put up with them.
A community like that is hard to monitor, and they are pretty chill about people making honest mistakes like coming in from /all. I feel like it’s obvious (or very quickly becomes obvious) which comments are mistakes, and which are butthurt males. They don’t seem to be hostile to the honest mistakes.
Whenever I see that happen, I think “wow, thanks for showing why this community needs that rule in the first place”. If dudes were more chill about women trying to build their own spaces, then perhaps it wouldn’t be necessary to have such a hard rule.
Nobody posted it!?
That’s community’s mods are super nice. Probably too nice TBH.
…But yeah. Follow community rules, or post elsewhere. What is so hard about that?
I think it’s hard simply because browsing by /all, or even by communities you follow and then just in your main thread, is not set up to highlight the community or it’s rules. If something hits the front page of /all I’m rarely digging into the communities specific rules or even where it’s coming from to an extent. Only to say, it’s a learned behavior to care about the communities specifically in this site aggregator system.
All of that being said, people of course should respect community rules and learn the behavior of identifying what room they’re in before engaging with that community. I’m just not surprised when these flimsy barriers fail.
Is the best behavior to block any community you don’t or can’t participate in? I personally don’t love that behavior because I like seeing what everyone is discussing in threads, but that’s a reasonable solution. Obviously my current strat is just reading the community before posting (like not commenting negatively about Star Gate getting a new season in the star gate community as an example that happened today lol).
Wandering in, missing the rule sign, getting corrected, and apologizing is fine. I’ve done it; the mods there couldn’t have been nicer about it. It’s not an ideal system, no, but it works well enough; it’s the mods shouldering that burden more than anything.
…The problem is when the guys are corrected, yet keep talking anyway. Which I see happen a lot.
There is no excuse for that.
Is the best behavior to block any community you don’t or can’t participate in? I personally don’t love that behavior because I like seeing what everyone is discussing in threads, but that’s a reasonable solution.
I feel extremely mixed about this, yeah. I feel weird even talking about it.
I personally don’t love that behavior because I like seeing what everyone is discussing in threads, but that’s a reasonable solution.
The women’s space… doesn’t prohibit lurking? On one hand, the community is public, and I’m curious about the perspective in the discussions. I’m interested in understanding them so I can be a more respectful person myself.
I upvote their posts so they get more exposure.
…But I don’t want to violate their privacy either. Blocking is reasonable. Right now, I just upvote them but don’t enter the threads.
Obviously my current strat is just reading the community before posting (like not commenting negatively about Star Gate getting a new season in the star gate community as an example that happened today lol).
Read the room, yeah.
IMO TV fandoms shouldn’t worship their material. Negative discussion is allowed, otherwise the space gets toxic.
In fact, this kinda happened to one of my personal fandom spaces, /r/thelastairbender: among other things, they idolize ATLA (the original series) like a diety, to the point where anything different (including other material like Korra or the Netflix adaption) is demonized. Deeper stuff like the novels, fanfics or speculative lore is not welcome either.
That sucks. It’s all too common; the Star Wars fandom (for instance) is notorious for it. And its why some negativity and ‘outsider perspectives’ should be welcomed in such spaces.
The women’s space is different though. It’s basically a shelter from the shit this group puts up with IRL and online, so being more sensitive makes sense.
I completely agree. I just wish I could systematically prevent myself from making any mistake lol, or like anyone from making the first mistake.
Anyone doing it intentionally is a dick and should be blocked. This is just an interesting problem for the platform we’re on and I’m excited to see how the Internet develops overtime to fix this.
I just wish I could systematically prevent myself from making any mistake lol, or like anyone from making the first mistake.
…I guess we theoretically could, via a Lemmy or Piefed PR, heh.
As an example, we could implement an opt-in feature that pops-up community rules before one is allowed to post. Kinda like Discord, but less obnoxious.
That’s one reason why I like this place. If something about the site’s UX design in problematic, there’s somewhere to go to get it improved. With any corporate social media, your only assurance is that it will get worse with time.
I think that’s a great idea.
how do you measure someone else’s intention behind an internet post? other than your own arbitrary judgement of it?
I mean, I like the other reply to this comment as well, but if a man posts in an all women community twice in quick succession after being warned it’s pretty easy to assume their intentions are bad - right? Like there are things people can say or do that are so engrained in the behavior of bad faith actors that you can kinda spot them.
My point was just to reinforce that I agree with the notion that people can maliciously attempt to ruin a community or discourage individuals/groups from posting and that they should be banned. “No Nazi’s in the bar” kinda thing.
That’s kinda the idea behind moderation.
It’s why it’s best done in small communites, as the narrow context narrows the scope of the arbitrary judgement.
I think it’s hard simply because browsing by /all, or even by communities you follow and then just in your main thread, is not set up to highlight the community or it’s rules. If something hits the front page of /all I’m rarely digging into the communities specific rules or even where it’s coming from to an extent. Only to say, it’s a learned behavior to care about the communities specifically in this site aggregator system.
Bingo. This is the classic ‘read the sidebar’ crap from reddit. most users aren’t reading hte sidebar because the side bar doesn’t exist for them when they click in front the front page.
or the ‘this post is already been made why don’t you search instead of making new posts’. because search is stupid and useless for the most part, and a thread from six months ago is likely not relevant today.
because that isn’t how a public internet site works.
if you go to a public park and hold a women only event, and get upset men are in the park and wander over and are curious what is going on… and get upset about those men then the problem is you and your unrealistic expectations of exclusivity.
if you want a private exclusive type of space… then make it private and exclusive. that way you can control who views and interacts with the event and even hire security to keep the ‘wrong’ people out.
like if the mods want to auto-ban everyone who doesn’t personally verify with them their womanhood, that’s their business. but expecting people to self-police their gender is a dumb expectation.
personally i have a dick but i don’t really identify as being a ‘man’. nor do identify as being a ‘woman’. i’m just a person. so am i therefore allowed to commentate? or is the mods who determine my sex/gender status, regardless of how i perceive myself?
To correct your ‘public park’ analogy, the space is public. Anyone can wander in. But it has clear signs posted at the only entrance saying its a space for women to speak, please be quiet, otherwise.
Missing the sign and apologizing is understandable.
But but if you wander in and knowingly violate that rule by electing to speak up, that is no one’s fault but yours.
personally i have a dick but i don’t really identify as being a ‘man’. nor do identify as being a ‘woman’. i’m just a person. so am i therefore allowed to commentate? or is the mods who determine my sex/gender status, regardless of how i perceive myself?
…A primary reason for that rule is basically “don’t be a dick about this being a women’s only space, please.”
If you feel you qualify as a woman to speak in the space, go for it! That’s the idea. That’s the spirit of the rule. But you specifically say "nor do [I] identify as being a ‘woman’. "
Making an issue out of it is precisely what is unwanted. So is trying to blame the space for your deliberate choice.
I don’t get why this is so hard to grasp. It’s simple.
just because i feel that way doesn’t mean the people in charge feel that way.
it’s just part of life. mods gotta mod. this entire post to me just seems like moral grandstanding/public shaming.
and further, i commented in that thread too. i came from the front page of lemmy.world. there were no rules posted. there was no signage. but i didn’t get called out by the mods because i ‘type like a girl’ and often pass as a woman on the internet.
I’m not trying to grandstand. My issue is with these presumptions:
like if the mods want to auto-ban everyone who doesn’t personally verify with them their womanhood, that’s their business. but expecting people to self-police their gender is a dumb expectation.
They’re not checking you at the door. They aren’t auto banning anyone. They very politely point out the sidebar to a few posters, then request them to stay quiet; that’s the extent of it.
…If you don’t make an issue of that, it’s not an issue.
if you want a private exclusive type of space… then make it private and exclusive. that way you can control who views and interacts with the event and even hire security to keep the ‘wrong’ people out.
But this is unrealistic, as then they wouldn’t get nearly as much participation in the space. It’s a public gathering spot, by choice.
Again, my specific problem is with commenters that are shown the rules by the mods, yet willingly choose to ignore them.
Just because you think rules are unrealistic does not give you a right to ignore them once asked. That’s how every community here works. Yet they seem to get tons of posters carrying that bad attitude, with that same line of argument.
That’s what makes me bristle. Respecting community rules (once known) is basic human civility, and people are perfectly capable of ‘self-policing’ that. I do not like the rejection of that + the policing of others in its place.
The public park is owned by everyone, not just the women. You would be correct to be upset by men being excluded from this public space.
Comms are not public assets. Your use of any comm is entirely at the pleasure of the administrators of that comm, and their designated moderators.
Your opinion on the way they implement and enforce their rules is entirely irrelevant within their comm.
My suggestion would be to do what you would for any other comm whose behavior you do not support and/or whose rules you find reprehensible: block them and move on.
they should make their community private then. that way they can control who virtually walks in the door, so to speak.
as is, there is no door. it’s a public space that anyone can access.
But we are allowed, and encouraged to read it, just not post. It is public.
You are entitled to your opinion. They are entitled to theirs. I am entitled to my opinion: what they do with their space and who they allow into it is no concern of yours. Mind your own business, and leave them to mind theirs.
Lets say you go to a public building and in that public building there is a room marked women only, lets say in that room are some toilets, would you go in that room? Since it’s a public space in the same building as all the other public space, the only difference is that portion of the space is understood to be only for women, or those that identify as women.
You may stumble in accidentally, and you will be gently corrected, but if you keep stumbling in, it’s gonna start to seem weird, and the corrections will get less gentle.
Perhaps this is an exception, but I’ve disregarded that rule to use the building’s only baby changing table a bunch of times.
Yeah, that’s fine, a bit outside the metaphor as there is no analog.
Basically just that socially enforced boundaries are a thing even in public spaces.
a lot of places have rebranded those to ‘family restrooms’. which is great.
yeah i would. esp if the men’s room was locked.
i have gone into plenty of women’s rooms before. i don’t really give a shit about gender/sex rules when it comes to not shitting my pants.
sometimes when i came out a woman got all huffy, but they never did anything about it. because it’s pretty stupid ultimately. everyone has to shit. and most people dont’ care women use the man’s room.
but i don’t live in gender exclusivity/anxiety land like many people do. most gender exclusivity people have identity issues hence they need to police other people’s gender and sex and make massive generalizations about others gender and sex because they lack self-awareness and understanding and confidence.
I agree that the guy in the post is mildlyinfuriating at best, and much more likely a douche (never hear a woman use male as a noun like that, a very particular shibboleth). But I’m not sure I love. This community becoming half posts picking on specific users. Should we blur the usernames? Otherwise its an easy path to brigading and bullying.
Absolutely. In fact, I would extend that past the user, to the community as well. This is a gate-kept (correct spelling?) community; that’s fine and I don’t think the rest of lemmy should care, but I somehow regularly come across discussions about the community or related, with many people in the comments frustrated. That frustration is natural and isn’t going to go away anytime soon. I don’t care about said community, but it’s annoying to keep coming across posts like this.
These posts are clearly just causing argument over a fairly small, specific community that most people aren’t, I presume, involved in. I wish we could just leave it alone; it’s gate-kept, let’s honor that and also not talk about the community outside of said community (exception: meta-communities dedicated to stuff like that).
I’d be annoyed if people couldn’t stop talking about e.g. the Linux community outside of the Linux community as well, with tuns of the comments angry about the Linux community because they don’t use Linux and are offended that the community doesn’t welcome them talking about windows or complaining about Linux. Obviously the community is intended for Linux users and while it’s not actively gate-kept, windows users (not looking to transition) aren’t exactly welcome. Funny parallel there.
If I weren’t a Linux user, and had blocked that community, I would be very annoyed at regularly seeing meta-commentary about the community I don’t care about and can’t contribute too. This isn’t a perfect analogy, but you get the gist of it.
It just seems to draw purposeless attention and outrage to something people could otherwise probably ignore. That being said, this is all pretty minor; I would have ignored this post as well, if it weren’t for the below. Clearly a number of people didn’t ignore it though.
I don’t know, I’m just lying on my sofa with a cold, and yelling at the sky…
Edit: Jesus Christ how did that get so long. I need to get healthy and get a life again. Being sick sucks.
never hear a woman use male as a noun like that
I heard ‘male’ the same place I heard ‘female’, and this wasn’t surprising. I’m jealous at your certainty that you haven’t yet and thus never will. Apparently, though, “there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”
That’s on me, there’s a few typos in my reply. I was just saying I’ve never heard it, not that I think I will never hear it ever. And genuinely the only menfolk I’ve heard use it earnestly were akward teenage boys, and the older lads mocked them and told them they sounded lame.
This is in the UK (and ten years ago), so maybe it’s much more common in Australia or the US or something. But from the reaction it generally gets online, I get the feeling it’s generally looked down on (outside of humor, or sci-fi).
same. it’s so weird to me when people pretend like women don’t act this way… and can’t be sexist douchebags.
there are entire media outlets past and present that are basically dedicated to female douchery spouting crazy sexist hateful shit. but it’s normalized and not seen as a threat to society.
Ya I don’t think folks need to be called out twice in a row in two different places. This would be a pathway for repeat offenders who refuse to acknowledge feedback perhaps?
Should we blur the usernames? Otherwise its an easy path to brigading and bullying.
Nah, it’s a public, open forum. “Brigading” is reddit nonsense & bullies can be reported.
The real crime is breaking accessibility & usability by not linking to the comment.
