Might help also to describe what you think feminism is, since it’s one of those terms that is overloaded.
I once had a physical therapist tell me she wasn’t a feminist because she thought women couldn’t be as physically capable as men when serving as soldiers, and seemed to believe feminism requires treating women exactly like men.
I told her I was a feminist because I believe in equal rights for men and women, an idea she did not seem so opposed to.
Nah.
For one, I don’t like a term that’s supposed to promote equality clearly favoring one side in its name.
For two, most feminists I’ve met genuinely hate men and think they’re owed superiority, not equality, for the treatment of women in the past.
How do you feel about Black Lives Matter as a name and slogan?
Do you think there might be a reason feminism is named that way?
Black Lives Matter is a fine name for what it supports.
I didn’t study the etymology of feminism, but in practice it has always resulted in fighting for women’s rights while ignoring or paying lip-service to men’s rights.
There’s no feminist platform that advocates for removing men from the draft or including women in it, for example. I don’t believe that the differences between men and women, especially today, are great enough to give any preference to one sex over the other. Most of us are suffering because we are poor.
From my experience, feminists will say feminism is about equality to fool people who don’t know any better into supporting a cause that is practically about female superiority. They believe it’s woman’s turn to be the oppressors and to them that is ‘fair.’
This is exemplified by how it’s socially acceptable (even encouraged) to make disparaging comments about men, but making similar comments about women will get you ostracized. You can’t say you’re for equality of the sexes if you laugh when somebody says “I hate all men” but get angry if someone else says “I hate all women.” Neither is acceptable, but feminists will disagree.
feminist as in “tear down unjust hierarchies”, and definitely not feminist as in “girlboss yay we need more ladies oppressors”
Exactly, also this “all men are bad and monsters” has to stop. This is not how you get the good men to help you stop and punish the bad men.
But yeah, fuck the patriarchy, women should have just as many rights and freedoms as men do, in theory and in practice.
reversing sexism isn’t a solution to any issue, it’s the irrational hierarchies that are bad, not the fact that it’s not your people on top.
also, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a feminist talking about “all men are monsters”, but I’ve definitely heard antifeminist men claim they do.
I agree, but sadly I have seen posts claiming that all men are monsters and lots of people agreeing online, and not just once or twice.
the funny thing is that now, me, a cis man, sitting in the loo, claiming to be pro feminist, is about to write “those aren’t real feminists”.
I’m laughing while writing this.
don’t take me seriously please.
As a CIS male I consider myself a feminist because I recognize that women continue to face systemic challenges that demand more than just abstract ideals of equality. To me, feminism goes beyond egalitarianism. It’s not just about treating everyone the same, it’s about recognizing the different challenges people face and working to change the systems that create and sustain those imbalances.
I was raised by my mom and 3 sisters, and that gave me a front-row seat to the everyday injustices women face. Everything from subtle slights to overt discrimination to being victim of abuse. It wasn’t theory for me, it was lived experience, just one degree removed. I’ve seen the strength and resilience of the women in my life, and I’ve also seen what they’ve had to push through simply because of their gender.
Now, as a father with a daughter, I feel an even deeper responsibility to be part of the shift. I don’t just want her to grow up in a world that pays lip service to “equality”. I want her to live in one where she’s safe, respected, and empowered. That means doing more than being “not sexist.” It means actively pushing back against the structures and behaviors (the patriarchy) that holds women back.
I have zero tolerance for toxic masculinity and so-called “alpha male” attitudes that promote dominance, entitlement, and emotional repression. That culture hurts everyone, but it especially harms women by normalizing control and aggression.
I want my daughter and every woman to see examples of men who are allies, not bystanders. Feminism is a promise: to show up, to speak out (or more often shut up), and to help dismantle barriers so that every person, regardless of gender, can thrive without restriction or fear.
I call myself egalitarian. It distinctly means what you mean by feminist without being so readily confused with what she means by feminist.
ironically I think it’s more confusing, if I tell someone I’m an egalitarian they honestly might not know what that word means at all, whereas at least if I say I’m a feminist they are closer to understanding that I’m in favor of women’s rights …
What my physical therapist considers “feminism” is not something I generally take seriously as a real meaning of feminism, it’s a strawman, and it feels wrong to me to cede the meaning of the word to something so contrary to the actual context of what feminism is (both historically and in its present forms).
There are a variety of feminisms, but none of them advocate for the kinds of things my PT believed, so … I don’t know, it doesn’t seem reasonable to only call myself an “egalitarian” and not use the term “feminist”.
I place the result of ‘What’s an egalitarian?’ as better than the die roll as to whether they will take it as one or the other, or even a third interpretation. If I say egalitarian, and they can’t define it, they’ll probably go into a questioning mode, which helps make them more open to discussion. The number of people who could define it AND be against it would be minimal. On the other hand, feminist has become almost an epithet to a significant chunk of the English-speaking world. It’s a word that shuts down empathy and critical thinking for those people, even if they couldn’t define it, which your anecdote helps show it can be hard for people to do at any rate.
Don’t get too caught up in nuance and small strains of academic philosophy here. The difference is clear:
Egalitarianism is a philosophy that asserts equality among all people. An egalitarian holds the belief or principle that all people are equal and should be treated equally.
Feminism is a social movement born out of the pervasive and systematic disenfranchisement, oppression and abuse of women, which holds to an egalitarian philosophy of equal rights between men and women. A feminist is an advocate for the equal rights of women.
One is an abstract idea that influences modern humanism, liberalism and democracy. The other is a struggle to make that ideal a reality, that has a different face in every different time and place that it’s happening. Both are virtuous.
I consider myself egalitarian
I feel like the term Feminist gives too much of an impression that I tolerate or encourage misandry, which I certainly do not. That and if you look at feminist groups throughout history TERFs have been the norm, not the exception.
Egalitarian, because sexism cannot be tolerated no matter which direction it’s facing.
I don’t believe in an -ism. I believe in equal rights. I think the name feminism does more harm than good.
Why does the name do harm? If it was “anti-sexism” instead would it be more appealing, or are all “-ism” labels bad in your mind? (Might I ask why the -ism is problematic? Would you have the same view of anti-racism, for example?)
Egalitarianism is a better term.
That just erases that, currently, women are far more oppressed than men. Men are negatively impacted by patriarchal society as well, we all stand to gain from its abolition, but erasing that it is women that are most subjugated makes room for opportunists to coopt the movement and shut down women.
This is the kind of thinking that pushes men away from feminism. When there is a clear intention to favor one sex over the other, the other will obviously be much less inclined to help.
There is no intention to “favor one sex over the other.” The present system is explicitly cismale-supremacist. Any attempt to erase that weakens the movement and serves to perpetuate sexism against women and non-binary folk. This is similar to the “All Lives Matter” movement as a way to disrupt the “Black Lives Matter” movement.
It might not be the intention but modern day feminism has become so much about what women can and cannot do and how men are pigs.
No, it hasn’t. This is the way conservatives frame the feminist movement, but the actual reality of feminism is far more grounded. When you cede the narrative and legitimize the conservative viewpoint, you weaken the movement.
This.
I’m not OP, but many people associate feminism with strengthening women specifically. If you look up the definition it actually does focus gender equality, no matter what gender you have. So from my perspective the term isn’t really intuitive.
Another thing I don’t like about the definition (at least the one on Wikipedia) is…
Feminism holds the position that modern societies are patriarchal—they prioritize the male point of view—and that women are treated unjustly in these societies.
While I sure get what they mean, I personally don’t like to classify one’s point of view as ‘male’. I agree that there are far more toxic men that seek more and more power. But i don’t dislike such people because they are men. I’d dislike their behavior just as much if they were women, non-binaries or any other gender. Classifying a character trait male IMHO is similar to calling a skirt or dress ‘women clothes’.
So yes, to me personally, anti-sexism / anti-discrimination or even better pro-equality are more appealing.
Do you think women face more inequality than men? What gender inequality is there to address, i.e. why does feminism as a movement of gender equality exist?
Women face different inequality than men. Where women are treated as valuable property, men are treated as disposable tools or dangerous threats. Feminism has done much to elevate women above valuable property, but men are still treated as disposable or dangerous.
I think women do experience more gender based adversities, but I worry framing it like that creates an “us and them” situation between genders. We should fight inequality wherever it exists.
It also misses intersectionality. Not all men are advantaged over all women. A man born in poverty, violence, with a disability, or of a marginalised race, isn’t automatically better off than a rich white women born to a good supportive family.
Yes, I think women face more inquality than men. And queer people face even more discrimination than women. But also cis-men that don’t fit well into the traditional gender roles, can face discrimation. I do not object the ideology behind femism. I just don’t like the term.
Labels that start off as descriptive become prescriptive. People who associate strongly with a label are less likely to have nuance to their views or change their minds. It becomes us and them.
You can become a prisoner of your labels.
isn’t feminism prescriptive / normative to begin with? It’s not a neutral description of injustice, it’s a call to action, a movement … no?
I hear you on the strong connection to a label, the way us-them dynamics can be dangerous - but the extreme opposite doesn’t seem to work either, so I don’t see this as a full justification of rejecting labels. If you are invested in a movement towards equal rights, sometimes having a banner to organize under and communicate by is useful … it might be helpful to think of a time before the feminist movement existed, and the motivations that exist for the movement.
The fact that there are so many definitions of what feminism is, shows that the label is not super useful. If you say you’re a feminist, you then have to explain which version you’re taking about.
It could be anything from “people should be given equal opportunity” to the extreme “all sex between a man and a women is rape”
“isms” are useful, and the name feminism is perfectly fine.
No it’s not. It clearly favors one side, but then people are saying it’s about equality.
If whatever feminism is trying to describe is truly about equality, then we should use a term that isn’t biased.
This is the same as saying the “All Lives Matter” crowd were correct in fighting Black Lives Matter. Women are more oppressed than men, even if everyone is oppressed by the patriarchy.
Not really.
Black Lives Matter is a movement specifically to shed light on how cops abuse their power towards people of color and frequently go unpunished for it. Black Lives Matter is not about addressing how white people may suffer at the hands of police brutality and if you’re trying to argue that it is, then you’re either disingenuous or ignorant.
You do have a point though, where both feminism and Black Lives Matter focus on one group over people over others.
Feminism as a movement specifically sheds light on the systemic violence against women and gender-diverse individuals under patriarchy. That doesn’t mean men don’t also benefit, but it does shed light on the primary issue.
I’m a feminist, opposed to any unjust hierarchy really. One of the things that set me off at a young age was how the US never passed the equal rights amendment.
Also in my home country the women’s liberation movement was tied up with the communist movement which also is why I have a lot of the politics that I do
I would call myself a feminist because I believe in equality. You know, fuck sexism.
Yes.
Down with the liars who are talking of freedom and equality for all, while there is an oppressed sex, while there are oppressor classes, while there is private ownership of capital, of shares, while there are the well-fed with their surplus of bread who keep the hungry in bondage. Not freedom for all, not equality for all, but a fight against the oppressors and exploiters!
– Vladimir Lenin, Soviet Power and the Status of Women
Comrades, there is no true social revolution without the liberation of women. May my eyes never see and my feet never take me to a society where half the people are held in silence. I hear the roar of women’s silence. I sense the rumble of their storm and feel the fury of their revolt.
- Thomas Sankara
Thomas Sankara was a true hero that was killed because he dared to threaten the status quo of “haves and have-nots.”
Yes, my whole life. It’s how I was raised, but now that I’m an adult, it’s also what I choose for myself and how I’m raising my own children.
Feminism is the radical idea that a person’s worth, dignity, rights, and social status are not and ought not to be determined by their genitals.
I think I’m more egalitarian. But this is largely dependent on what you mean by feminism.
I believe all women should have total agency over themselves. I believe they deserve equal pay, treatment, and rights. I believe them when they discuss their issues and the prevalence of sexual assault and abuse.
I also believe that there are structures in our society that unfairly put them above men. For instance, in child care and criminal sentencing. Women tend to get the benefit of doubt that they are the better parent and that the relationship between a child and a mother is generally more important than that of a child and father. Women also, in general, get lighter sentences for the same crime.
I believe that we should be more equal in the value we place on the relationship between a child and it’s father. Raising the importance of how we as a society view that relationship rather than bringing down the importance of the mothers relationship.
I also believe we should lighten the sentences of men to be more in line with women’s sentencing. Although that largely falls in line with my personal opinion that criminal sentencing in this country is far, far too harsh.
Women tend to get the benefit of doubt that they are the better parent and that the relationship between a child and a mother is generally more important than that of a child and father.
ironically I would give this as an example of patriarchy, as precisely the kind of thing feminism aims to eliminate …
Raising the importance of how we as a society view that relationship rather than bringing down the importance of the mothers relationship.
I think the feminist approach might be to stop thinking of children as primarily the responsibility of mothers, that both parents should be responsible and engaged, such that the courts wouldn’t assume the mother is “the parent”, while the father is more like a “provider” (that’s the patriarchal setup - women don’t earn, they stay home and serve as housekeepers and caretakers without pay or economic autonomy, under the control of the patriarch of the family who earns & controls the money).
Although that largely falls in line with my personal opinion that criminal sentencing in this country is far, far too harsh.
if you are talking about the U.S., there is a huge discussion about prison abolitionism, but I think there is significant overlap between various social justice movements, and contemporary feminism has been focused on recognizing how interconnected these struggles are (we can’t just narrowly consider “women”, as that often leads to only considering the experiences and rights of cis, middle and upper class, white, and able-bodied women).
This directly brings up the question of what is feminism and the various waves it’s gone through.
I would consider the abolition of a “patriarchy” separate from feminism. I think there are various criticisms of that notion and it’s rather cultural centric viewpoint. Raising women doesn’t have to come at the notion that men must be brought down. I don’t consider egalitarianism to be a zero sum game.
If your definition of feminism includes the dismantling of patriarchy, I don’t think I’m entirely convinced patriarchy isn’t a mislabeling of the underlying systemic issues in our society. And I don’t particularly like the implied core issue being men are holding women back.
Society as a whole has radically changed with regards to how women are viewed and their role in this social construct, even with the current political climate and the unfortunate direction it’s turned. The feminist movement has found incredible ground and made significant headway, and I’m incredibly impressed and overjoyed to see it.
I still see a lot of change that needs to happen for us to really reach equal footing. But I may not share the same idea of what the root cause of that inequality is.
As for the discussion of other social justice movements, my underlying beliefs remain the same. Raise the lowest among us, provide the same opportunities and social support, and treat everyone with respect.
I am a feminist because I believe men and women should have equal rights. I think a lot of people fell for the propaganda that feminism is about women over men or something. The thing a lot of men fail to realize is that “the patriarchy” hurts them too. A lot of the things you see men complain about like being told to “man up” or not being able to express their feelings without being mocked are 100% a side effect of patriarchy.
I would love to rephrase the word to “Equalist”.
Equal rights for all!Equal rights for all!
That’s what feminism is. That’s my whole point about people falling for the propaganda that it means something else.
The word you’re looking for already exists, it’s egalitarianism lol.
Well.The word problem is solved. Hooray.
Can the world now calm the hell down and just be peaceful with everyone playing nice? :(
“Man up” isn’t always about bottling your feeling like the US internet says. More often it’s “stop complaining and just do it”. And someone has to do “it”. And it often leads to growth.
The internet often distorts things.
As for the topic, I am a feminist. The first and second wave feminism, that is. The equality ones. Not the pink haired screaming “all men are evil and should pay” third wave. Everybody screaming “patriarchy” while sitting on their bed, not even looking further then that. Looking at everything black and white.
Actually, I’m kinder to women then men…
“Man up” isn’t always about bottling your feeling like the US internet says. More often it’s “stop complaining and just do it”. And someone has to do “it”. And it often leads to growth.
I’m sure telling people who are hesitant to open up about their feelings and want to express them more to “stop complaining and just do it” will definitely make them open up about their feelings. 🙄 Way to miss the point entirely.
Not the pink haired screaming “all men are evil and should pay”
I don’t think that caricature helps promote gender equality.
As for the topic, I am a feminist. The first and second wave feminism, that is. The equality ones. Not the pink haired screaming “all men are evil and should pay” third wave.
Actually, I’m kinder to women then men…
Yeah, specifically I’m fairly third wave in that I’ve been convinced of the value of an intersectional perspective, am pro modern sexual liberation (including the freedom to not want it), and generally am more aligned with the feminist critiques of the second wave. Furthermore I find a lot of the fourth wave to a shitshow, though considering the concept of the fourth wave is not based on academic ideas or coherent demands, but rather the idea that social media changed feminist discourse so radically as to constitute a change to a different wave.
Feminism has always had multiple sides, and like most liberatory movements it has people who are cringe, who are counterproductively hostile, and who generally suck. It will try things that don’t work or push things in bad directions. Also college students and young people will do it in ways that look terrible. But feminist theory is also insightful texts that challenge cultural biases. And in a time where rights such as abortion are under attack and government officials are expressing their opposition to women’s suffrage, the principle of equality and fundamental rights remains even if it looks different now from when our grandmothers and great grandmothers were fighting for the right for a bank account.
Yep. Screw the patriarchy.
As a guy though, uh… I guess I’m passive? For better or worse, my impulse is usually to point to women to do the talking on this subject, who should be platformed instead of some dude fumbling to explain what they don’t experience.
Ironic that, by upvoting this comment in agreement, I’m doing the opposite of what you advocate for…
There’s so many flavors of feminism, and some self described feminists have been pretty wack, I’m just gonna be an egalitarian.
Then according to commentators in this post you’re a “sexist pig”
The ratio says otherwise
